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Josephus, wrote about Masada and what was done and said and by whom and where. Yet he was nowhere near Masada at the time of the event. There simply weren't enough survivors for him to have interviewed either. So how did he know what was being said and done? He didn't - he inserted it. Petty much in the same way that the gospel writers inserted what Jesus and others supposedly said and did, I suppose.
Josephus is a fraud.
His utterance of Yeshua was already taken into account at his death.
I don't know a single jew that doest cringe at hearing of such nonsense being attributed to their Family.
Back to nativity!
I've heard quite a few disspensation arguements about calendrical settings.
Yet I've yet to see a graph.
There's no need to argue points in time if a person hasn't even been educated in basic astronomy, and applied geometry.
We ALSO use Strabo, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Velleius. Take Josephus out of the picture, we STILL have Strabo, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Velleius. And that is just for the Legates and Quirinius. Using other historians of that time we can construct the history of that area at that time. And Josephus fits in that history.
I have a question: Is there any record of Augustus calling for a census?
If So,
Where might a person find such records to further discuss the matters of ordinate seasons.
If Not,
I venture all records were destroyed.
Feel free to interject. There are no references to Augustus ordering an empire wide census, as these were taken at the provincial level. And while records were easily destroyed, such a unique, empire wide census would have been recorded by historians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinacled
Now where is the reasonable assumption that Matthew and [Luke (ya,ir] as I like to call him, Is giving more than any consultory historian could offer at that time or even now?
As you said yourself.
Historians can be biased, like judges and prophets are subseptable to bribes!.
Luke does not write like a historian, he uses none of the semi standard format of histories of that time. The nearest we get is Luke 1:1-4 to pretend he is writing a history.
We also have several historians who wrote over 200 years, which makes the idea of bribery a strange idea. Bribed by whom? For what reason? We also know later Christians added some text to histories, but why would they add text that refutes the Bible?
Josephus, wrote about Masada and what was done and said and by whom and where. Yet he was nowhere near Masada at the time of the event. There simply weren't enough survivors for him to have interviewed either. So how did he know what was being said and done? He didn't - he inserted it. Petty much in the same way that the gospel writers inserted what Jesus and others supposedly said and did, I suppose.
Indeed, and probably for political reasons.
But as his account of Herod is supported by other historians (one contemporary), no one can honestly use political reasons as an excuse for Josephus's account of Herod.
My references are Josephus, Tacitus, Cassius Dio (as I mentioned in my responses), the New Testament, and personal knowledge of retrograde motion and how the night sky looks (yes, I do astronomy as well), usw. And you can substantiate EVERYTHING I say by a) reading the sources for yourself, and b) by reading relevant histories (instead of christian web sites that have to omit certain facts).
But to make your work so much easier, Josephus in Jewish War (1.9-10) says Varus was Legate when Herod died, and Varus was Legate until 4 BC. This fact alone refutes the idea that Herod was alive AFTER that date.
Here are the relevant legates:
13-10 BC Marcus Titius
10-7 BC Sentius Saturninus
7-4 BC Quintilius Varus
4-1 BC Calpurnius Piso
Titius: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.270-77 to 81; Strabo 16.1.28.
Varus: Josephus, Jewish War 1.617-39 and 2.66-80 , Jewish Antiquities 17.89-133, 17.221-23, 17.250-98; Velleius 2.117.2 (who was alive at the time); Tacitus, Historiae 5.9.2.
For all the governors (including Piso), see The Governors of Roman Syria from Augustus to Septimius Severus (25 BC to 25 AD) by Edward Dabrowa.
For the date of the consulship of Quirinius, try Dio Cassius 54.28.2 and Tacitus Annals 3.48.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
So I am missing the point I refuted?
We ALSO use Strabo, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Velleius. Take Josephus out of the picture, we STILL have Strabo, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Velleius. And that is just for the Legates and Quirinius. Using other historians of that time we can construct the history of that area at that time. And Josephus fits in that history.
Multiple attestation used correctly.
You mean multiple attestations used incorrectly.
Velleius 2.117.2
2 Varus Quintilius, descended from a famous rather than a high-born family, was a man of mild character and of a quiet disposition, somewhat slow in mind as he was in body, and more accustomed to the leisure of the camp than to actual service in war. That he was no despiser of money is demonstrated by his governorship of Syria: he entered the rich province a poor man, but left it a rich man and the province poor.
And this is your proof Herod died in 4BC
I also looked at your other so called proof of multiple attestation and none of them back up Josephus stating Herod died in 4 BC.
No wonder you did not quote any of them, what were you hopping no one would look at them and just take your word for it. Ya some people are prone to do that but contrary to what you think of me I actually do do the research.
So you go ahead and carry on, I am done with the likes of you, I'm starting to think you are someone else using a different name and that someone is the one I have on my ignore list.
Anyway if I was you guys reading I would check out any of this guys so called proof yourself and not take his word for anything.
No, correctly. You know, the multiple attestations we have, but the gospels do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Velleius 2.117.2
2 Varus Quintilius, descended from a famous rather than a high-born family, was a man of mild character and of a quiet disposition, somewhat slow in mind as he was in body, and more accustomed to the leisure of the camp than to actual service in war. That he was no despiser of money is demonstrated by his governorship of Syria: he entered the rich province a poor man, but left it a rich man and the province poor.
And this is your proof Herod died in 4BC
Must you ALWAYS straw man? This is part of the evidence we use to determine WHO was governor, and WHEN. This is how we know Varus was governor until 4 BC. And if Herod died when Varus was governor, then Herod must have died in 4 BC or earlier.
As I explained in the post you quoted. The fact that you needed to straw man this is telling. Or do you not understand this concept?
And a BIG clue for you here that you missed earlier. Velleius was a contemporary of Herod, so he lived BEFORE Josephus. So once again you demonstrate that we do not rely ONLY on Josephus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
I also looked at your other so called proof of multiple attestation and none of them back up Josephus stating Herod died in 4 BC.
No, they back up when these people were governors. That is how we know Varus was governor until 4 BC. And if Herod died when Varus was governor, then Herod must have died in 4 BC or earlier.
The fact that you can not evaluate the clues is telling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
No wonder you did not quote any of them, what were you hopping no one would look at them and just take your word for it. Ya some people are prone to do that but contrary to what you think of me I actually do do the research.
If only you could evaluate what you 'researched'. If you did, you would know when the various people were governors, including Varus. And if Herod died when Varus was governor, then Herod must have died in 4 BC or earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
So you go ahead and carry on, I am done with the likes of you, I'm starting to think you are someone else using a different name and that someone is the one I have on my ignore list..
And there is the ad hominem. Even if I was using a fake name, the information you either do not understand or misrepresent stands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Anyway if I was you guys reading I would check out any of this guys so called proof yourself and not take his word for anything.
bye bye have fun.
People can check everything I say. In fact I recommend they do. Because I do make some mistakes. But when they evaluate my claims honestly and intelligently, they will either agree with me or point out where I am wrong. You should try that some time.
Josephus. In the past I have pointed out where Josephus get chronological dates mixed up; and although the atheists will cry about me attacking their bible, the fact that Josephus has a habit of getting his chronological dates mixed up does come into play historically speaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Yup that is exactly what I thought. everything you used is based on, or off of, the works of Josephus and his chronological dating which I have already shown in over abundance cannot be trusted.
So like I said you really have nothing but Josephus.
Ummm. Would that be the same Josephus who, in your previous Jesus thread where you were using to support your claim that Jesus existed, you held up to be a most trust-worthy and accurate historian? THAT Josephus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
which goes to show everyone see only what they want to.
Including you.
Last edited by mensaguy; 07-15-2018 at 05:52 AM..
Reason: added closing quote tag to first quote
If Joseph and Mary Christ knew that Baby Jesus would grow up and drive millions of people crazy, they probably would have left him in the manger for the hogs to eat.
We still haven't established when the nativity took place? If Herod died in 4BC then Jesus would have to have been born 2 to 3 years earlier at least.
Quote:
Matthew says Joseph was afraid to take Jesus into Judea because of Archelaus. Luke says Joseph left Jesus in Galilee every year at Passover time, until he was 12. I say these two things have got to be related! Archelaus left Judea forever in the middle of 6 AD. Therefore, Joseph took Jesus to Passover in March, 7 AD.
......
If true, then Jesus was born somewhere between April of 7 BC and April of 6 BC. The year 7 BC is also when Saturninus governed Syria (and held a census, according to Tertullian).
Remember, Tertullian was a Christian, so he would make arguments to support Christianity whether they were true or not.
As Judea was not part of the Roman empire until 6/7AD (and Galilee until 44 AD) neither would have a Roman census until those dates.
That is why Matthew has Jesus born before 4 BC, and Luke has him born over 10 years later, in 6/7 AD.
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