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Again that is only contrary to YOUR view of what the apostles wrote Mike. I read the same scriptures you do and came to many of the same conclusions Mystic did. So why is our view wrong and yours correct?
The difference between us Mike is you think unless we believe exactly like YOU we did not experience God.
I would never say you did not have an encounter with God simply because you did not believe as I did.
Our views on God ( as there is only one) that we encountered is a totally separate thing from the encounter itself.
so I will ask this again
You believe their claim but not Mystic, did God all of a sudden stop revealing Himself 2000 years ago? Do you not believe God still reveals Himself today? if so why question Mystics experience?
Address what I actually said. Is the universalist correct, or is the annihilationist correct. They can't both be correct. At least one of them has to be wrong. Yet both come by their beliefs by reading the Bible.
In Old Testament times, God revealed Himself through the prophets. Then when the time according to God's plan was right God revealed Himself through Jesus who Himself is God, the second Person of the Trinity. Then Jesus appointed apostles and pastors to teach His word. The apostles, and those closely associated with the apostles wrote letters which were copied and recopied and thus preserved for the church down to our time.
God is not today personally appearing to or talking to anyone and teaching them new things and new beliefs and which contradict what the apostles taught. What God has to say to the church has been preserved in the New Testament documents. The believer is to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord by means of studying the Bible under the filling of the Holy Spirit and preferably under the teaching ministry of a qualified pastor who has academically prepared himself to teach.
God attempts, without coercing the volition, to convict a person of their need for Him. When the gospel message is presented the Holy Spirit will make the gospel message understandable to them. Even before ever hearing the gospel message God will bring about circumstances in a persons life which will most conducive for that person.
What God does not do is to introduce Himself to a person and say, ''Hi there. I'm God and I have some things to tell you.'' Nor will God ever lead a person away from the faith which was once for all handed down by Jesus and by the apostles who are His representatives.
So in other word God does not talk to people today except via the bible.
Mike you can except that if you like, but to me God is alive and well and still speaks to us via the Holy Spirit that Jesus said he would send to lead us into all truth.
Note: the OT scripture were present at the time Jesus said this and Jesus made NO mention of them being able to lead us into all truth.
Address what I actually said. Is the universalist correct, or is the annihilationist correct. They can't both be correct. At least one of them has to be wrong. Yet both come by their beliefs by reading the Bible.
You forgot the 3rd one Mike, eternal torment.
However what one believes about God is a different issue then ones encounter with God, and it is the encounter that is the issue here.
However to answer your question it is obvious all 3 cannot be correct, and your correct all 3 come by just reading the bible. Which should really tell you something, which is it is ONLY via the Holy Spirit and him alone that we can find out the truth.
So in other word God does not talk to people today except via the bible.
Mike you can except that if you like, but to me God is alive and well and still speaks to us via the Holy Spirit that Jesus said he would send to lead us into all truth.
If one person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that universalism is true, but another person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that annihilationism is true, which person is correct? Which person is telling the truth?
Again, as I said, the Bible is to be studied under the filling of the Holy Spirit. That is how the Holy Spirit guides the believer, through Bible doctrine resident in the soul.
Quote:
Note: the OT scripture were present at the time Jesus said this and Jesus made NO mention of them being able to lead us into all truth.
Jesus' representative, the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy concerning the Old Testament scriptures,
2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
The Bible is the standard of truth, not your feelings or what you think is the Holy Spirit telling you that is contrary to what the apostles wrote, or what you want to be true.
However what one believes about God is a different issue then ones encounter with God, and it is the encounter that is the issue here.
However to answer your question it is obvious all 3 cannot be correct, and your correct all 3 come by just reading the bible. Which should really tell you something, which is it is ONLY via the Holy Spirit and him alone that we can find out the truth.
Then which person is correct when one claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that universalism is true, but the other person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that annihilationism is true? To which one has the Holy Spirit told the truth? At least one of them is mistaken. Which one is wrong?
People can claim that the Holy Spirit has told them anything they want to believe is true. The fact of the matter is that some people use the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disregard those things in the Bible that they don't like.
If one person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that universalism is true, but another person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that annihilationism is true, which person is correct? Which person is telling the truth?
Again, as I said, the Bible is to be studied under the filling of the Holy Spirit. That is how the Holy Spirit guides the believer, through Bible doctrine resident in the soul.
Jesus' representative, the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy concerning the Old Testament scriptures,
2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
The Bible is the standard of truth, not your feelings or what you think is the Holy Spirit telling you that is contrary to what the apostles wrote, or what you want to be true.
Well, Mike, it appears tht your doctrines have the Holy Spirit bound as tightly as you need, but you seem to have missed the nature of that Spirit presented by Jesus and Paul in that Bible you so trust.
If one person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that universalism is true, but another person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that annihilationism is true, which person is correct? Which person is telling the truth?
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Your changing gears here mike, first it is just what one believe and now you want to add the Holy Spirit to the equation.
But again what one believes is totally different then one encounter with God.
As Paul said some children are still in need of milk and others can eat the meat.
Now does one who can only drink milk have the same understanding of God as the one who can eat the meat? Think about it.
And does that mean then those who can only drink the milk never experienced God? again think about it.
Quote:
Again, as I said, the Bible is to be studied under the filling of the Holy Spirit. That is how the Holy Spirit guides the believer, through Bible doctrine resident in the soul.
And you are adding to what the scriptures actually say. Jesus mentions NOTHING about the scriptures leading us into all truth.
Quote:
Jesus' representative, the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy concerning the Old Testament scriptures,
2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
The Bible is the standard of truth, not your feelings or what you think is the Holy Spirit telling you that is contrary to what the apostles wrote, or what you want to be true
No the Holy Spirit is the standard of truth just as Jesus said it was.
and reread your tim qoute " though faith in Christ Jesus is the standard.
Then which person is correct when one claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that universalism is true, but the other person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe that annihilationism is true? To which one has the Holy Spirit told the truth? At least one of them is mistaken. Which one is wrong?
People can claim that the Holy Spirit has told them anything they want to believe is true. The fact of the matter is that some people use the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disregard those things in the Bible that they don't like.
Tza Mystic is not meaning to demean anyone's belief. People are asking him to explain his views, he is answering them to the best of his abilities. His answers are not a personal attack, however people who believe differently view it that way for the simple fact as they believe differently.
If I was to ask you to define your views on God and Jesus and you did so but they were different then mine, could not what you said be viewed by me as being negative and dismissive? think about it
No because he talks down to people and uses disparaging language.
That is not disagreement.
If he were to substitute "black people" every time he starts talking anti religion this is what he is revealed to be "the trouble with black people is...." or "black people are primitive and barbaric because...."
The word is bigot. Here is the definition
Again it is all the more glaring because the product he is peddling supposedly is "love for everyone"
big·ot
noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
And arrogant
ar·ro·gant
adjective
showing an offensive attitude of superiority
This has nothing to do with disagreement. And everything to do with looking down on others
dis·par·age
verb
regard or represent as being of little worth.
"he never missed an opportunity to disparage his competitors"
belittle, denigrate, deprecate, trivialize
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-02-2017 at 09:14 AM..
Your changing gears here mike, first it is just what one believe and now you want to add the Holy Spirit to the equation.
But again what one believes is totally different then one encounter with God.
As Paul said some children are still in need of milk and others can eat the meat.
Now does one who can only drink milk have the same understanding of God as the one who can eat the meat? Think about it.
And does that mean then those who can only drink the milk never experienced God? again think about it.
Answer the question. You stated that the Holy Spirit leads you to the truth, so which person is correct when one says that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe in universalism while the other person claims that the Holy Spirit has led him to believe in annihilationism? At least one of them is wrong. So tell me which person is wrong about having been led by the Holy Spirit with regard to his belief.
Quote:
And you are adding to what the scriptures actually say. Jesus mentions NOTHING about the scriptures leading us into all truth.
And I showed you what Paul said about that. Jesus understood the authority of the Old Testament Scriptures.
Quote:
No the Holy Spirit is the standard of truth just as Jesus said it was.
and reread your tim qoute " though faith in Christ Jesus is the standard.
You reread it. Paul was referring to the Old Testament scriptures, the sacred writings which are able to make wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ ( 2 Tim. 3:15).
Jesus told His disciples that the Holy Spirit would lead them to the truth. One result of that is the New Testament Scriptures in which the apostles recorded the doctrines pertaining to the church. Doctrines of the faith that was once for all handed down.
Again, some people, and you are of that group, use the Holy Spirit as an excuse to reject those parts of the Bible that you don't like. You don't like the authority of the Scriptures and deny that authority.
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