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This thread has exploded and it is difficult to know where to begin responding. I have no desire to try to change anyone's views because they are so comprehensive and conditioned to see God in a specific context. The typical context is the polar opposite of the context I use to interpret the same scripture that others use. The context we use produces vastly different interpretations of the same text.
Mike's post here is an example of those differences. The use of inspired Scripture as used by Mike and so many others is driven by the belief that the receivers of those inspirations were perfect (infallible) interpreters of those inspirations. In addition, it is presumed that those who gathered and compiled the writings were similarly perfect. It is not possible to know anything about our human failings and actually expect that to be true. The farther back in time the inspirations were received the less reliable the interpreters were and the greater the impact of their lack of knowledge and understanding of the world.
But the main problem is the context of God under which the received inspirations are translated to meaning for us today. The dominant context of God from the OT is a wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices. The dominant NT context of God from Jesus is a God who IS Agape love and who is not counting our sins against us anymore because Jesus saved us by achieving what we could not. The NT context is ignored and the OT context of God is imposed on Christ's revelations of God corrupting the interpretations of His significance.
This is the result of the stagnation of understanding of God imposed on believers as a sign of their faith in God. This directly contradicts what Jesus instituted with the New Covenant. God did not abandon us to the words "written in ink" and stone. We DO have Jesus with us as the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts" in Agape love. If we continue to ignore what is in our hearts, we are ignoring Jesus and God
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Originally Posted by Mike555
I'm not the one whose understanding of God is stagnant. Nor did I ever say that the apostles were perfect. Further, the apostles wrote the New Testament, not the Old Testament, so accusing me of ignoring the New Testament is a lie. You have a low view of God in thinking that He can't get His exact meaning across to the human writers of Scripture. And of course you do have a low view of God just as you have a low view of His word, including the Old Testament. Additionally, you include the New Testament in your diatribe about ''words written in ink'' except when you think you can use something from the New Testament to aid you.
When we are told to rely on the guidance of the Comforter to what God has "written in our heart" that sets the standard. We are warned that the words "written in ink" are to be tested against what God has "written in our heart" because the "letter kills" and the "Spirit gives life." That suggests that we are to test the spirit of anything "written in ink" against the Holy Spirit of Agape love (Who IS God). You test nothing and accept everything that is why you think I reject everything "written in ink". But I don't. I just test everything.
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You once stated that you use eisegesis to interpret the Bible. Eisegesis is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to as reading into the text. And that is exactly what you do. You read into the text your own presuppositions and agendas. The exact opposite of exegesis which is the proper way of approaching Biblical interpretation.
I use BOTH exegesis and eisegesis. Your biased definition of eisegesis is the one used by those who refuse to apply any modern knowledge or understanding to the text. Eisegesis is NOT introducing one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. It is applying material and knowledge acquired after the text was produced which for the Bible involves thousands of years of knowledge and understanding. So, yes your purely exegetical understanding IS stagnant.
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You have a very warped view of God and of His word, and you twist the Scriptures into whatever shape you have to in order to make them fit your preferred beliefs.
That is patently false. I use an absolute and unchanging standard of God's truth as revealed by Jesus. It is always the same, no twisting or turning to fit anything but the truth.If anything is incompatible with or inconsistent with the Holy Spirit of Agape love (Who IS God) then it is NOT from God or Jesus, period!
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For instance you constantly whine about the Old Testament presenting God as wrathful and ignore the fact that the New Testament does as well. The word wrath refers to God's judgment. Something of which both Paul and John, as well as Jesus Himself spoke of. You dismiss the book of Revelation which is full of God's coming judgment because by your own admission you don't understand it and then claim that it can't be understood because you don't understand it. In your mind, if you can't understand it then no one can understand it.
All kinds of people have claimed to understand Revelation and have produced all sorts of conflicting and contradictory symbolic nonsense from it most of which contradicts my absolute standard of God's Truth. So I simply refuse to credit any of it and don't try to understand it.
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The standard of truth is not your heart. The standard of truth is God's word and God's word has been recorded and preserved in the Scriptures for the edification of the church. But you prefer your subjective feelings over objective truth and therefore you pervert the truth. You are constantly claiming that everyone is already saved despite the fact that the New Testament Scriptures make it very clear that no one is saved unless and until they believe on Christ. And so you pervert the gospel and mislead anyone who is foolish enough to believe you instead of the Biblical writers. And you will continue to do so because you arrogantly think that you have a better understanding of God then the apostles who actually did have an encounter with God. You're a tool being used by Satan who you deny exists to teach things which are contrary to faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. The faith which was once for all handed down to the saints (Jude 1:3) refers to the body of truth taught by the apostles. The very body of truth which you distort and which I am certain you will continue to do. On the one hand I hope that people aren't foolish enough to take your word over the apostles. Moderator cut: deleted
You THINK that our salvation is from some eternal retribution that we need to save ourselves from by our choosing to believe the right things about Jesus. You clearly need to believe in a judging God who will exact retribution on those you think deserve it. Okay, I don't. I believe in a loving God who wants us to avoid the consequences of our ignorance and lack of love for one another. I see no wrath in God but I do see negative consequences for those who do not love God and each other every day or repent when they don't. Where does that leave us? We both believe that God's love, mercy, and compassion are boundless. We both want people to love God and each other as Jesus instructed. How does that serve the Satan you believe in, Mike?
There is no rational basis for taking what I said about the apostles and the body of teaching handed down by them once for all to the saints and turning it into a claim that I said or implied that ''My opinion is the only one that counts.'' The word of God was communicated to the apostles who taught it orally and recorded it in writing. It is what they taught that counts. Any teaching which opposes what they taught is false. You perhaps will not understand that.
Why? What happens if we don't believe or understand any of it but do as Jesus instructs? If we love God and each other every day and repent when we don't, what does it matter if we don't understand or believe what you believe?
Truth is absolute, not relative. There is no I have my truth and you have your truth. A thing either is true or it isn't. God either exists or He doesn't. Jesus either is who He said He is or He isn't. The apostles either are telling the truth or they aren't. Jesus either resurrected and was witnessed afterwards or He wasn't.
Everyone has an inborn sense that God exists, but many suppress that truth. Anyone who lives long enough will arrive at a point of God consciousness which simply means that at some point a person with normal brain capacity will come to consider whether some kind of supreme being exists or not. If at that point a person has positive volition God will see that he gets the opportunity to hear the gospel about Jesus Christ. Having heard the gospel he must decide whether or not he believes it. If he does then he has eternal life. If he rejects the gospel he remains under condemnation. On the other hand, if a person once having come to the point of God consciousness has no interest, or is negative, he might never hear the gospel message. Basically a person is called upon to choose for or against God. That is the issue in who, to use your words, '' will be damned while some will be given heaven.''
As I have said, I accept as valid the historical evidence and the testimony of the apostles concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Many people do not. It's something you must decide for yourself.
Splendid, Mike, splendid. You are absolutely right. I have always said the Literalists have a sort of Integrity in that they don't re-write the Bible to suit themselves (only when it comes to countering Bible -critics) and cafeteria Christians who bring their own wine if the place doesn't sell it may be easier for unbelievers to get along with (it's always easier to be friendly with someone who isn't damning you to hell). But you people do us a great service when you say that the Gospels are either true or they are not and thus the Believers are obliged to accept what Jesus said as true whether they like it or not.
All we have to do is provide some evidence that he didn't say it.
Why? What happens if we don't believe or understand any of it but do as Jesus instructs? If we love God and each other every day and repent when we don't, what does it matter if we don't understand or believe what you believe?
Consider, Mystic, the idea that the 'comforter' that is putting the Better Way to treat your fellows and yourself rather than putting trust in what the Bible says - good and bad - is just accessing the same morality that the rest of - including atheists - use.
... absolute andunchanging standard of God's truth .... It is always the same, no twisting or turning to fit anything but the truth....
Thst totally contradicts what you said earlier. You said god changes and you said truth changes.
When I said God does not change because Truth does not change you rejected it and called it not true because you said that makes God "static."
I'll go find the post
Here it is. I said "Biology changes. Spirit does not. Physical reality changes. God does not."
You said
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
...Since our consciousness is Spirit and it changes over time, this makes no sense. Since God is a living God and life unavoidably involves change your unchanging God makes no sense. ...
And you said this
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
What is this preoccupation with a static reality when there is nothing remotely static in our reality???? As long as life IS change and our reality is life, what is truth will change with it. .... not with your unsupportable static viewsof God. There is nothing in my experience that would lead me to expect God to be static and unchanging. That is inconsistent with life. ...
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-02-2017 at 10:32 PM..
Actually I always say that God can't compromise any of His attributes. While God is love, He is also righteous and just and must judge sin and evil. While God loved Adam, when Adam sinned God had to condemn him. Yet because God loved Adam He provided the means by which Adam could be restored to relationship with God. And while God's love was the motivation for providing salvation, the same justice which had to condemn Adam also provided the mechanics by which Adam, and all who simply trust in the finished redemptive work of Christ are saved. God's justice can both bless and curse depending on the circumstances. Anyone who will avail himself of God's provision for salvation has eternal life. But those who reject God's plan of salvation remain under condemnation and spiritually separated from God.
Why did God have to condemn Adam? He did not know right or wrong, good or evil. You have an awful lot of things that God MUST be and do. Where did you get all these requirements for God??? If He is Omnipotent why is there anything He can't do, like compromise??? Why MUST He judge anything? He is God who is going to make Him judge???
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This life is a probationary period in which man must choose for or against God. Man's volition is the issue in the spiritual warfare which rages throughout human history. Since Satan's volition was involved in his rebellion against God, and since one of the reasons why God created man was to resolve the angelic conflict, man must use his volition to come to God through Christ, or to remain separated from God and share the same punishment as Satan and his angels which is why Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 that the accursed ones will be sent to the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Your bias against eternal punishment simply contradicts what both Jesus and the apostles have said.
Hmmm. Why do we have to believe all the unbelievable things you believe to "come to God through Christ?" Why can't we just do what Jesus repeatedly told us to do - love God and each other every day and repent when we don't?
Consider, Mystic, the idea that the 'comforter' that is putting the Better Way to treat your fellows and yourself rather than putting trust in what the Bible says - good and bad - is just accessing the same morality that the rest of - including atheists - use.
Oh, I do, Arq. You see I am convinced that the Comforter is within each human consciousness, including yours. That is why you can access the same morality.
When I said God does not change because Truth does not change you rejected it and called it not true because you said that makes God "static." You said god does change because god is a living god.
I'll go find the post
Here it is. I said "Biology changes. Spirit does not. Physical reality changes. God does not."
You said
"Since our consciousness is Spirit and it changes over time, this makes no sense. Since God is a living God and life unavoidably involves change your unchanging God makes no sense."
Now I understand what you were referring to. We were definitely talking at cross purposes and I bear the blame. I assumed (always a mistake) that you were referring to God changing His mind - a frequent argument by those defending the OT descriptions of God's motives. God's Spirit (Character) is unchanging because He IS love and what that means is described in detail in 1 Cor 13, Galatians 5 and the Sermon on the Mount. That is the absolute standard of God's truth. Sorry for my presumptuousness about your view.
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