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The entire OT is about him. The coming Messiah. Jews recognize there is a Messiah to come..they just aren't willing to recognize it was Jesus.
That is because they are highly intelligent and know a fake when they see it. There were many fake Christs during that time period. One man decides to make Christ the son of God, and walla, you have a new religion.
Because an omniscient being would know that this was going to happen and still created the universe where this is allowed to happen.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Correct. We are in excuse territory here. It's the old, old situation where there is not only no valid evidence for or reason to believe in any god, Bible god, Gospel - Jesus or the Christian church(es) but it is all excuses and evasions to fend of the heap of reasons to suppose there are no gods, especially no Bible -god, and specially especially no Gospel Jesus and most specially especially no divine intention to found any kind of Church.
Well that might be a valid argument if God knew everything that would happen in the world before He ever created it; but what if He did not? What if He has to search things out to see what is going on?
My apologies. Thought you had one of those creator omnigods.
Noted
No problem, people see christian and seem to always jump to the conclusion that all Christians see things the same, we don't. That is why I find it so hard to speak with atheist about anything about God as they always come in with their preconceived idea, via the christian fundamentalist mind set and start pointing out things I do not even agree with. It is very frustrating. So think you for taking note that I do not see things with the fundamental mind set. It should make any discussion easier
I have no problem with the Bible as folklore. My trouble is with it being claimed the inerrant words of a god.
The problem is that many take it literal and most people are starting to see a purely literal understanding of the bible just does not and cannot add up.
pneuma, why is this stuff so difficult for you to comprehend? Even maat55 can see you're just painting circles around yourself.
I insist on historical writing because anyone, Christians not counted, would insist on historical verification before believing in someone and the gospels in particular and the Bible in general simply DO NOT QUALIFY as historical writing by any mainstream historians.
And if you had of at least read the link I gave you would have seen I addressed those points.
So #1 it is not bias on my part if any normal rational person would insist on some outside proof from someone insisting they believe in a person no substantiated by any extra-religious writings.
#2 How in hell can the nativity account in the gospels be accurate when they are two entirely different accounts in Matthew and Luke?
This was also addressed in the link I gave. You obviously did not even take the time to read it. Therefore to keep stating this stuff just shows me your being bias and don't want to look at anything that might go against your bias. Your not after the truth, your after your own version of the truth.
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If one witness says "I saw a white man behind the wheel" and another man says "I saw a black woman behind the wheel" what do we do with their accounts? Duhhh!
#3 I refuted all the outside proof. That includes Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonius, and Mara bar Serapion. Josephus has been proven to be an interpolation and the others don't mention Jesus by name.
So that's the end of the story. Where else do you want to take this? There's no proof for Jesus Christ. Period.
For me, that isn't even the question to be asked. The question is; does it tell the truth, at all?
There seems less and less reason to credit much of it. There is history, yes, but not as much as we once thought. And what there is, ir merely a background to religious spin. The siege of Tyre was turned into a prophecy - retrospectively. The siege of Jerusalem was turned into a miracle when it was a deal between the two sides.
The idea of any input from a god, never mind inerrant input, seems utterly ludicrous.
That is because you, like any fundamentalist you read everything in the bible as being literal; totally ignoring the mythos.
There has been a considerable amount of research done on Jesus. That He was indeed a real person isn't a subject in dispute amongst historical researchers.
The Roman Empire itself was fundamental and irreversiblely changed by Jesus' teachings. Pretty ick accomplishment for someone who wasn't real. So you're claiming that all the changes brought to the entire world via Jesus was a clever contrivance and that nobody ever actually saw the man? That a group of people just made him up and maintained that illusion?
And other figures in history like say Leonididis, Alexander, Atilla, for ack of the same "proof" you ask for regarding Jesus do you also believe they were made up as well? That He was indeed of divine origin may be open for discussion. But his actjal, physical existence is not widely in dispute. Not sure exactly where it is you're hoping to go with this.
yup, even trans believes Jesus was a historical person but everything written about him is all made up nonsense.
Why did God set things up like this and leave? What kind of a God creates flesh eating bacteria and cancer in children? That sort of thing distorts the whole concept of "love," doesn't it! And maybe the obvious answer is that NO God is responsible for these things at all, and never was. Maybe the universe has no ultimate goal other than ongoing change caused by random chance. Scientifically speaking, quantum mechanics drives all change. And unfortunately random change can lead to things like flesh eating bacteria and cancer in children just as indiscriminately as it can lead to an island sunset and a five dollar milkshake.
And why is it that it has to be God that created things the way they are? And God did not leave, he is within all of us. To many it looks like he left us all alone and they do this because they are looking for God " out there somewhere" when they should be looking within.
At bottom, contradiction. Serious, fatal and revealing contradictions. I know that Bible apologists claim that they can be explained, but in fact all they do is excuse, dismiss, evade and ignore.
I have bored many a poster's ass off with examples - indeed Raffs and Pneuma had a long thread where I set out the best examples and the conclusions - that's the point; lists of contradictions prove nothing, it's understanding how the gospels were written that's important.
So I don't want to do it again here, but just to tell you what my reasons are.
You would if you could but you can't.
I will make it easy for you---list one contradiction.
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