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It should to non-believers. Your views validate at least one truth in the Bible---I Cor 2:14. Thanks
I'm sorry but calling another somehow lacking in understanding or even being somehow a lesser sort of person because he does not accept your claims because of some sound reasons, only proves what an unsound and indeed dishonest thinker Paul really was and does nothing to validate the Bible as reliable, sound or true.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
See your getting closer to my understanding. There is history and there is mythos, it come down to knowing which is which. Which is one of the reason I have stated the sciences can actually help us out in this regard.
I always like it when our views converge. But for me, there is only one question: The resurrection; true history or fabricated mythos? If mythos, the Bible has no more value that any other book of myths, fairy tales or indeed fantasy novels.
If you think it is true, we have a disagreement.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
Thus proving you are not denying God but rather YOUR concept of God.
It has always been us, if we make the mess we are to clean it up. Only a child expects their parent to pick up after them.
I do not make God unable to do stuff, it is your concept of God that views my concept of God as being unable to do stuff.
Why should God pick up our mess? as I already stated only a child expects such from their parent. Humankind was given dominion ( you might want to check out what that means) of the earth and now they are crying they don't want dominion.
There was this guy floundering around in the ocean praying that God would save him. A fishing boat came along and offered to pull the man out of the water.
The man said no, God will save me.
After a while the lifeguard show up and tries to help the man.
The man says no, God will save me.
Low and behold the man finally drown and come before God and says to God why did you let me drown, why did you not save me as I asked.
God replies, did you not see the fishing boat or the lifeguard I sent.
Your understanding of mythos is probably what the term means today which is something not true. That is not what mythos meant to those who wrote many a year ago. A mythos is used to explain a truth that was hard to put into words.
You can hardly blame me for taking the Creator of the universe -God as a starting point. If you say it isn't, and in addition a god that doesn't do a thing to fix this world if he doesn't want to, for me such a god is valueless and irrelevant whether it exists or not.
Your analogy fails because while a parent might not feel obliged to clean up after their kids, they should be obliged (1) if the ceiling fell in on them to pull the pieces off them and repair it. And that (like the parable of the barber) overlooks that they KNEW the ceiling was going to fall on them and did nothing to prevent it.
Do you see where this is going? You parable of the rescue (I have seen it in various forms) means simply humans do stuff - God is given the credit by people who believe in it.
And Just what can this god of yours do? Didn't make the universe, so didn't make the earth? Certainly doesn't prevent disasters. Parts Red seas and Stills storms? Not if the Tsunami and Katrina are examples. I doubt that you could credibly claim it could even send a rescue boat or helicopter unless the rescuers were going to do it anyway.
(1) if they had any morality even comparable to that of the average human bean.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-18-2017 at 07:42 AM..
Or maybe you can tell us how Saul died, 1 Samuel chapter 31:4, 2 Samuel 1:10
The Saul one is only a contradiction if the Amalekite is telling the truth. The Bible is only reporting the guy's claim. And we know that the Amalekites were scumbags.
Produce a single , non youtube whacko , recognized historical scholar who denies Jesus existed.
Your problem is that the 'Jesus' that historical scholars accept could have existed, is not the 'Jesus' that YOU want to have existed. Serious historians are happy to accept that there was a 'Jesus' who was an itinerant rebel rabbi protesting about the establishment - but no serious scholar accept that Bible Jesus, Jesus The Christ the son of a god named Yahweh existed. Only theologians accept that.
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Originally Posted by mstelm
wait..... there is no records of the things Pontius Pilate did?
Pontius Pilate didn't claim to have walked on water or come back to life after he died. See the difference??
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Originally Posted by maat55
66 books of men claiming to channel God is not historical evidence. By, your standard, we have to believe Allah is real also.
Ganesh too!
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
yet, you would have us believe that you'd believe if there were more? How many would it take?
The Quran is 1 book written by 1 author. And there are many mistakes contained in it. Compared to 66 books in the Bible.
...and many mistakes in your Bible too.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
It's generally accepted in our society that numerous sources are a good thing.
So as millions believe that Ganesh exists...that means that he does??
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Do you believe a man's sperm originates from between his backbone and his ribcage? The Quran teaches that. We know by science that it simply is not the case. That is one error easily confirmed.
Do you believe that every living organism, that has ever existed fitted into a small boat?
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There are none
No contradictions??? Really?? Assume the following three verses from the Bible are true.
1 John 4:8 - "God is love."
1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is not jealous."
Exodus 20:5 - "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God.
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Originally Posted by Mr5150
Why does the use of the NT, a source of eyewitness accounts,scare you?
They are not eye-witness accounts. Why do you keep reaping this nonsense about eye-witness accounts when it has been debunked over and over again?
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Originally Posted by pneuma
Nice post Mike, but won't matter much with thrill. I covered much of this stuff in the historical Jesus thread that thrill was part of and it went right past him.
That might have been because most of what you presented got shot down in flames.
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Yet here he is back with the same stuff, using the same old tired arguments.
Well at least he's consistent, unlike you, who argued that Josephus was an honest and reliable reporter of history - when you thought he supported your case for a historical Jesus and then, when he didn't support your case, dismissed him as an unreliable and incompetent moron who regularly told lies in order to get a good story!
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
Be specific. Post the verses that show a contradiction.
1 John 4:8 - "God is love."
1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is not jealous."
Exodus 20:5 - "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God.
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Originally Posted by Mr5150
I never made the claim Jesus was mentioned in the OT. But he is sure mentioned in the NT
...by writers who were familiar with the prophecies of the OT.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You know, comments like this only just show me that it's just that same atheist game where they demand evidence ONLY and I repeat ONLY for the purpose of taking pleasure in shooting it down.
Your problem is that your 'evidence' CAN be shot down...and very easily - where as verifiable evidence cannot!
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The best proof of Christ comes from experiencing Him personally.
The best proof of a thousand other gods comes from experiencing them personally.
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Originally Posted by ClaraC
It's an indisputable fact that Jesus Christ of Nazareth existed...
No it isn't. It is a BELIEF. There is no verifiable evidence WHATSOEVER for the existence of 'Jesus The Christ' other than in the Bible - and we all know how unreliable that is. There isn't even any reliable evidence for Nazareth never min Jesus of Nazareth.
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.... King Herod tried to kill him as a baby, and that he grew into a powerful and very influential charismatic leader who was feared by the Roman government because he was teaching the masses that they were equal to the leaders, and for that he was crucified and died on the cross.
So the Bible story goes but outside of the Bible there is nothing!
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That much is absolutely indisputable in the historic record.
No it isn't. Please show the historical evidence for your claim.
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Whether you believe Jesus of Nazareth was the divine son of God born of a virgin, and who rose from the dead after he was crucified, is up to your faith.
Ah...well there you are see! By your reference to 'Christ' the one you are fighting for is the Jesus of the gospels...and for that one, there is not a single scrap of verifiable evidence
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For historical record proof, you can start with the National Geographic cover story a few years ago entitled "The Real King Herod", with photos of the remains of the castle that still exists.
Nobody doubts Herod existed. What we dispute is the existence of gospel Jesus. The existence of Herod doesn't not prove the existence of Jesus The Christ.
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Originally Posted by PJ1252
I'm not even Christian and I know he existed..
No...you don't 'KNOW' at all. You BELIEVE.
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Originally Posted by wizdum
.... if we did not have evil or bad things we could not appreciate the good.
Bull! Are you saying that an omnimax deity couldn't instil the knowledge of good without experiencing the bad?? That's like saying that we wouldn't be able to know that murder is wrong ...unless we murder someone.
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Faith is a gift....
No. Faith is what you use when the evidence tells you what you don't want to be true. It's the last refuge of those who have had their arguments defeated by logic and reason. Faith is simply the practice of ignoring the supportable in favour of a desired belief.
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... studies have shown prayer can be powerful with no real explanation.
In the link I gave earlier I used other sources to show the gospel account of the nativity is an accurate historical account.
...and TRANS shot you down in flames.
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You wanted proof outside of the bible, I gave you some,...
Was that the Josephus proof when he was a most reliable and trusted historian or the Josephus that was a babbling moron?
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Are you really after the truth or just the truth you want to hold to?
LOL! From a Christian!!!
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Originally Posted by NVplumber
There has been a considerable amount of research done on Jesus. That He was indeed a real person isn't a subject in dispute amongst historical researchers.
...not the 'Jesus YOU want to have existed. There isn't a single scrap of verifiable evidence for THAT Jesus...and as for the other one, there isn't a lot more.
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The Roman Empire itself was fundamental and irreversibly changed by Jesus' teachings.
No. It was changed because one Roman Emperor believed it. If it hadn't been for that, Christianity would have remained as it was ...an insignificant blood cult.
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Pretty ick accomplishment for someone who wasn't real.
So what about all the things that say...Hinduism has done to change the world. Would that mean that it's true?
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So you're claiming that all the changes brought to the entire world via Jesus was a clever contrivance and that nobody ever actually saw the man? That a group of people just made him up and maintained that illusion?
If you are talking about Bible Jesus....yes!
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And other figures in history like say Leonididis, Alexander, Atilla, for ack of the same "proof" you ask for regarding Jesus do you also believe they were made up as well?
If they claimed to have walked on water and came back to life...yes.
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That He was indeed of divine origin may be open for discussion.
So you are not talking about the Jesus of the Gospels then...but an itinerant rebel rabbi who overstepped the mark?
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
I will make it easy for you---list one contradiction.
1 John 4:8 - "God is love."
1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is not jealous."
Exodus 20:5 - "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God.
Someone asked why I chose Necrotizing fasciitis as an example. Because it is a particularly terrifying disease that result from something as harmless as a paper cut. It spreads quickly up the limb liquifying the muscle and destroying anything in its path. For a God to allow innocent children to be subjected to such horrors especially when Jesus purports to say he loves children to me is the ultimate blasphemy, but then God cannot blaspheme against Himself so we are left with the ultimate mystery: The universe had to be created by a Supreme Being but what kind of Being is this Being?
I couldn't rep you, Rafius, for post 284 so I'll do it here. I get so weary of having to repeat that there's no extra_Biblical evidence for jesus just to have the Christians keep coming back time and time again with, "Where's your evidence there is no proof for Jesus outside the Bible?"
The value of these posts, whether Christians know it or not, is that the proof is on our side the Jesus of the Bible never existed. The more Christians put up this smoke screen that he did, the more opportunities we have of blowing it away and exposing the truth of a non-existent Biblical Jesus. Silent visitors will weigh both sides and make a decision firmly in favor of our side if they are rational adults. So Christians are actually advancing our cause whether they like to or not. The Catch-22 for them is that when a post like mine comes along they are obsessed with responding to refute but their evidence is so lousy that that just gives us non-believers all the more opportunity to present the facts and let the lurkers form their own conclusions.
I couldn't rep you, Rafius, for post 284 so I'll do it here. I get so weary of having to repeat that there's no extra_Biblical evidence for jesus just to have the Christians keep coming back time and time again with, "Where's your evidence there is no proof for Jesus outside the Bible?"
The value of these posts, whether Christians know it or not, is that the proof is on our side the Jesus of the Bible never existed. The more Christians put up this smoke screen that he did, the more opportunities we have of blowing it away and exposing the truth of a non-existent Biblical Jesus. Silent visitors will weigh both sides and make a decision firmly in favor of our side if they are rational adults. So Christians are actually advancing our cause whether they like to or not. The Catch-22 for them is that when a post like mine comes along they are obsessed with responding to refute but their evidence is so lousy that that just gives us non-believers all the more opportunity to present the facts and let the lurkers form their own conclusions.
Keep it coming, Christians, and serve our cause!
The problem with our Christians here...and indeed most Christians, is that they seem unable to discern the difference between any possible historical 'Jesus' and the 'Jesus' depicted in the gospels. You can witness it time and time again here with Christians claiming that...'no serious scholar denies that Jesus existed' and they then go on to refer to this 'Jesus' as 'Jesus Christ' or 'Jesus of Nazareth'. Well that Jesus is not the 'Jesus' that many historians accept the possibility of!
Whether or not there was an historical Jesus is frankly, of no importance; whether there was a Jesus the Christ of gospel fame...is! That's why, when Christians claim that historians accept that 'Jesus' existed we need to ask...WHICH JESUS! You can see it in the posts above by jonesg and ClaraC. They don't know their Jesus from their Jesus the Christ.
I always like it when our views converge. But for me, there is only one question: The resurrection; true history or fabricated mythos? If mythos, the Bible has no more value that any other book of myths, fairy tales or indeed fantasy novels.
If you think it is true, we have a disagreement.
You still have a wrong understanding of mythos trans. A mystery is a mythos that tell a story. Paul explained the mythos of the resurrection in 1 Co.15. we are raised a spiritual body. Now I am note sure whether my understanding is the same as mystic or not but we are close in that we both see it as a spiritual Resurrection.
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You can hardly blame me for taking the Creator of the universe -God as a starting point. If you say it isn't, and in addition a god that doesn't do a thing to fix this world if he doesn't want to, for me such a god is valueless and irrelevant whether it exists or not.
You keep going on what you think God should do and then complaining that God does not live up to your expectations. Now if God is in each of us, which I believe he is, the power to change things is within us and God uses us to make the changes that are required. You probably agree with that leaving out the God aspect. However imo that gives people room to boast they are better then others as they can say look what I did. Again imo that gives people an inflation of themselves so they can look down on others.
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Your analogy fails because while a parent might not feel obliged to clean up after their kids, they should be obliged (1) if the ceiling fell in on them to pull the pieces off them and repair it. And that (like the parable of the barber) overlooks that they KNEW the ceiling was going to fall on them and did nothing to prevent it.
Again you place your concept of God in the mix, which seems to be an omni God. And that is where a lot of the problems in dealing with these things stem from. The omni's are an invention of man, at least in the common understanding of them.
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Do you see where this is going? You parable of the rescue (I have seen it in various forms) means simply humans do stuff - God is given the credit by people who believe in it.
Man is nothing more then an animal, and like any animal will not risk it life for those outside of its own house so to speak. However humans will risk their lives for others, so what is it that separates man from the rest of the animal kingdom?
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And Just what can this god of yours do? Didn't make the universe, so didn't make the earth? Certainly doesn't prevent disasters. Parts Red seas and Stills storms? Not if the Tsunami and Katrina are examples. I doubt that you could credibly claim it could even send a rescue boat or helicopter unless the rescuers were going to do it anyway.
(1) if they had any morality even comparable to that of the average human bean
The someone had free will. Why blame the builder for their decision to do evil. It is simple if you understand it properly.
DID THEY? Where exactly do you find God promising humans free will? The Bible DOES indicate that God is omnipotent however. Which means that God gets the results that He intends to get without fail. Human "will" is meaningless.
I couldn't rep you, Rafius, for post 284 so I'll do it here. I get so weary of having to repeat that there's no extra_Biblical evidence for jesus just to have the Christians keep coming back time and time again with, "Where's your evidence there is no proof for Jesus outside the Bible?"
The value of these posts, whether Christians know it or not, is that the proof is on our side the Jesus of the Bible never existed. The more Christians put up this smoke screen that he did, the more opportunities we have of blowing it away and exposing the truth of a non-existent Biblical Jesus. Silent visitors will weigh both sides and make a decision firmly in favor of our side if they are rational adults. So Christians are actually advancing our cause whether they like to or not. The Catch-22 for them is that when a post like mine comes along they are obsessed with responding to refute but their evidence is so lousy that that just gives us non-believers all the more opportunity to present the facts and let the lurkers form their own conclusions.
Keep it coming, Christians, and serve our cause!
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