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Tracie's vid answers that one. These are not fringe groups; these are large ones: the baptist the evangelicals. They are causing serious social problems. This is even when they are held in check by the law. If they had their own way, the law would be changed to suit them and not only atheists but anyone who did not toe the line would be in for a bad time.
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And you think that encompasses all religion? In every camp there are the fringe. However it is the fringe that get air time as it were. If you think all baptist and the Evangelical are like that you are simply mistaken.
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Atheism on the other handadvocates a level playing field for all and everyone able to believe what they like.
except where religion is concerned.
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Only when they go public, should they be called on to back their claims up, and no playing of the 'Respect' card.
Dawkins is pretty public, but I do not see anyone going after him.
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Extremist accusations aside, there is a bottom line here: whose case is best validated. The religious case has lost ground and i losing more all the time. The case for Gospel Jesus is still not being made here, just critiqueing atheism through the backdoor and on rather shaky grounds of 'extremism'
I already gave the link to the case for the gospel Jesus trans and you know full well the grounds I gave.
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What examples of extremism are there in the 'New' atheism? They are few and arguable.
Elevatorgate
lower food costs if you pray.
a muslim couple shot by an atheist.
None of those have anything to do with atheist extremism, much less the validity of the rationale, and even less does any of that make a case for the gospel Jesus.
I was wondering
We are moving this thread off target trans, in a few days ( I work for the next few so not much time) I will start a new thread showing how the extreme is in every field and is not good for humanity.
That's certainly the humanist socially -functioning unit -view and thanks for confirming that is the way you actually live just as much as we secularists do, and quite rightly.
I didn't mention the way I live and it certainly isn't the way secularists live.
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But it isn't the message of Gospel Jesus and forget about the rich men of the OT - Jesus made all that obsolete - even sabbath observance. While it is true that he likes to have dinner withn the wealthy - Pharisees, Tax colectors and Synagoge rulers rather than share the poor fare of the poor, the gospel message is
It is not the message of the gospel. The message of the gospel is not about money. It is about salvation. Maybe you should consider that the wealthy are the most in need to change their way of living. Matthew certainly did, after Jesus dined with him. Of course then you wouldn't enjoy bad-mouthing Jesus.
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"Don't worry about where you next meal is coming from - God will provide. Don't hang on to your money: guarantee your place in heaven by giving it all away and following Jesus.
Jesus told one person to give all of his money away. Now you try to use that one instance to try and make me feel guilty. Sorry it won't work.
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That is the message of the gospels, and then when you have given it all away and become a poor follower yourself..why then Jesus and his church will seek out new rich men to hang around.
When you get a better understading of the gospel, get back to me.
That can just as easily be turned around the other way trans.
And if so supported by evidence. I'm glad now that I posted that video about the harm done by quite mainstream religion. That's not to mention the high profile lawbreaking, scams and hypocrisy of those whom the believers can say don't "represent" them.
Dover, Davis, Hovind, haggard, Westboroi, KJV -enthusiast Bible -burning, and more money -grubbing and lying televangelists that you could shake a sshtick at.
And still, not a scrap of support for Gospel Jesus being a reliable account.
Complete and utter bull-hockey to dismiss an obvious contradiction. It's plain enough. Answer what it says rather than what you want it to say.
More tripe to excuse not doing what your man-god said you should do. As Trans pointed out, there are more than enough other verses telling you not to worry about your money and possessions - and if if Jesus only meant for the one particular rich man that he was addressing, how would that one man's wealth alleviate the suffering of the poor. Clearly, the instruction applies to ALL Christians. When it comes to your wallet, you clearly don't trust your man-god do you?
I don't see you arguing that, when the bible says that we shouldn't lie with a man as we do with a woman, that only applies to the Hebrews of the OT. Oh no! THAT applies to everyone right; but giving your money only away applies to the person being addressed in that particular verse!!
. 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Matthew 6:26-34
Exactly my dear old horse. Their excuses for not doing so never cease to amaze!
When you study the Bible enough to understand it, get back to me.
are not 'Fringe' groups. These are big influntial Christian denominations. Tracie already exposed the excuse of Christians shrugging this of as the result of 'extremists' but it isn't.
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except where religion is concerned.
Yes, where religion - all religions and denominations have a level playing -field. I suspect that what you refer to is a fear (justified) that the privileged position enjoyed by religion which it has gotten used to accepting as its' right will be roled back, and that is what seems unacceptable to you.e
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Dawkins is pretty public, but I do not see anyone going after him.
Don;t you? I see his as a hate icon of the religious even more than Darwin. I see his singled out for abuse, sneering and attacks quite often. And on very flimsy grounds. I was surprised to see him quite hig up on a list of horrible people simply because of 'Elevatorgate' (which I mentioned, note) which was nothing to do withn dawkins but he rather unadvisedly said 'there were more important things'. This lack of concern for women being Hit on during Atheist conferences was perhaps bad tactics, though i see his point, but this is the very worst Dawkins has ever done, and it's **** compared to the crime, social damage and scamming we get from high profile and mainstream religion.
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I already gave the link to the case for the gospel Jesus trans and you know full well the grounds I gave.
I may go back and look (1)), though as a rule I don't fall for ploy of giving links and books and telling me to research your case for you. I don't reacall but I would be surprised if I didn't debunk your case already.
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We are moving this thread off target trans, in a few days ( I work for the next few so not much time) I will start a new thread showing how the extreme is in every field and is not good for humanity.
We have been off topic for some time, old mate, which is why I mention every time that we are getting no case for the Gospel Jesus.
By all means start a thread on the dangers of religious extremism. I shall look in and will call you on it if you just talk in loose terms. I shall require specific example of extremism all sides (though I won't demand you produce extremism in Buddhism or Hinduism - which is there, I can confirm). If you try to argue on as assumed premise without validation that atheism has extremists to the same degree and proportions as Christianity, never mind trying to pretend it represents any atheists but the ones who stay quiet and the Christian ones can be dismissed as a new irrelevant crackpots or crims, you will be in for a rocky ride.
(1) I did and at p 7, you linked back to the nativity discussion. And if you think that ended in you making a case for Gospel veracity, I can only remind you that you did not address the basic discrepancy any more than Omega has addressed the 3 + contradictions I gave him, but tried to reconcile Luke and Matthew by trying to make the Lucan census the 3 BC Augustan loyalty declaration rather than the 6 AD tax census,. by various fiddles and trying to debunk Josephus, none of which worked very well. And the contradiction in the actual course of the nativities wasn't addressed at all.
I would venture asert that is any can bear to plough through that interesting but very long debate, they are unlikely to be persuaded that the Nativity ever happened, unless they are determined to believe it to start off with.
And anyway, you than came in at p 14 talking about metaphor and decrying literalism. No what is it - a literal Nativity that doesn't work (nor does the resurrection) or a metaphor for those too sophisticated to need a literal Nativity?
Last edited by mensaguy; 07-21-2017 at 01:51 PM..
Reason: fixed a quote tag
When you study the Bible enough to understand it, get back to me.
Tell him, Raffs.
You might pick up the point of his pointing the finger at the wealthy and ignoring Luke 6.41/ Matth 7.3.
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
I didn't mention the way I live and it certainly isn't the way secularists live.
Your post 325 certainly said the way you live - handling money just as other people do and here you are now saying you know how secularists don't live - without any of us or them posting on it. When you learn to argue coherently, get back to me.
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It is not the message of the gospel. The message of the gospel is not about money. It is about salvation. Maybe you should consider that the wealthy are the most in need to change their way of living. Matthew certainly did, after Jesus dined with him. Of course then you wouldn't enjoy bad-mouthing Jesus.
When you learn to argue the Bible honestly, get back to me.The message of the gospel is indeed about salvation, and salvation is based on belief, not on handing over your dosh. But, that does not alter the fact that the gospel repeatedly demands of giving money to the poor - down to the last mite, giving up everything and following Jesus, not laying up treasure in heaven, the instruction to the rich young man who could not give up his wealth. They have all they need for salvation, but one thing they lack. The one thing you can't do any more than Mr Luke 18.22.
When you know and can understand what's in your own Bible, get back to me.
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Jesus told one person to give all of his money away. Now you try to use that one instance to try and make me feel guilty. Sorry it won't work.
No, getting you to listen to what your Gospel Jesus tells you to do, if it gets in the way of your car, CD collection and computer games (or whatever soaks up your income) will never work. Matth 5 42, 6.19, 25-35 inclusive, 19,22 (parallel to Luke's rich young rule,) and don't overlook 24.42, thinking 'I can put this right later on'; you never know the time. Though in your case you think the belief will be enough and ignoring the repeated instructions to give what you have to the needy and devote yourself to Jesus can be ignored on the grounds that this is Legalistic, or he only said it once. Isn't once enough?
25 31-46, and that harks back to the earlier 7 21-and that's just Matthew. When you have either the Biblical knowledge or intellectual integrity of even a militant atheist, get back to me.
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When you get a better understading of the gospel, get back to me.
So done. Ball now in your court.
I luv it here
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-21-2017 at 07:27 AM..
Jesus told one person to give all of his money away. Now you try to use that one instance to try and make me feel guilty.
That's because that is exactly what your man-god was saying...that if ANYONE wanted to be 'perfect' they should sell there possessions and give the money to the poor. If you are going to claim that he only meant that for the specific person he was addressing at the time then you might as well go and kick a hornet's nest because you are not going to be able to argue anything other than that all instruction, teaching and advice given by your man-god only applies to the specific person that he was speaking to at the time.
So also with the rest of the Bible. You can no longer clam that the Bible prohibits us from indulging in homosexual acts because, what you would claim to be the prohibition of homosexual acts, can only be found in the OT - and as the OT only applies to the Hebrews, it is only prohibiting homosexuality amongst them. We are exempt...because any instruction in the Bible only applies to the people being addressed...right?
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Sorry it won't work.
Of course it wont work with you - or any other Christian for that matter. It won't work because it is something that you just don't want to do. When it comes to your wallet, you seem to think that Jesus is talking out of his arse!
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Originally Posted by omega2xx
When you study the Bible enough to understand it, get back to me.
...and yet I have studied it. The Qur'an too and many of the Vedas, the Elder Edda, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Enuma Elish, Hesiod's Theogony...and a quite a few more that I won't bore you with. How about you? What have you read other than the Bible?
Last edited by Rafius; 07-21-2017 at 06:49 AM..
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