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The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad,
he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me,
but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent
and dies in this state (of disbelief),
he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said
By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad,
he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me,
but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent
and dies in this state (of disbelief),
he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.
What are your views on Khalif's post shown in post #119?
And are you able to answer the questions at the very end of post #113?
Muslims arose after 600 or so AD. Moses was around in BC, and Jesus was born in about 6 AD. They could not have been Muslim, even if they said seemingly non-Jewish things. Also Moses helped write the first five biblical books or the Penteteuch.
The word muslim is a play on the root of the word. The root of the word is s-l-m. I think most of the world has heard the hebrew word shalom which means peace. Thus per the Quran, if one believes in peace thru g-d, then one in a muslim. It does not mean one that believes in mohammad or the writings of the Quran. Look at the word islam as it has the same root. Islam is the religion. Thus anyone who believed in the g-d of the heavens w/o a idol would have been monotheistic. Problem with arabs before mohammad is that they were polytheistic.
The word muslim is a play on the root of the word. The root of the word is s-l-m. I think most of the world has heard the hebrew word shalom which means peace. Thus per the Quran, if one believes in peace thru g-d, then one in a muslim. It does not mean one that believes in mohammad or the writings of the Quran. Look at the word islam as it has the same root. Islam is the religion. Thus anyone who believed in the g-d of the heavens w/o a idol would have been monotheistic. Problem with arabs before mohammad is that they were polytheistic.
so in that sense there is a similarity, there is a parallel.
mohammd brought a message of monotheism to a group of people that was polytheistic, in his place and time.
Abraham brought a message of monotheism to a group of people that was polytheistic, in his place and time.
that would make sense then what Khalif said shown in post #119 about nothing new being given, but a reminder of what has been given before.
Khalif said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
...My belief is that Muhammad was not given any new law. It is said in the Qur'an that I have not said anything to you that I have not said to the messenger before you. Therefore, we are not following any new laws but the laws already in existence before the Qur'an. The Qur'an only verifies them. The Qur'an is considered "reminder" of what has been given before. ....
The "reminder of what has been given before" then would be monotheism. It sounds like mohammd was talking to the polytheists in his place and time the Arabs about monotheism.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-27-2017 at 10:27 AM..
so in that sense there is a similarity, there is a parallel.
mohammd brought a message of monotheism to a group of people that was polytheistic, in his place and time.
Abraham brought a message of monotheism to a group of people that was polytheistic, in his place and time.
that would make sense then what Khalif said shown in post #119 about nothing new being given, but a reminder of what has been given before.
Khalif said
The "reminder of what has been given before" then would be monotheism. It sounds like mohammd was talking to the polytheists in his place and time the Arabs about monotheism.
Something that the non-Yehudim had lost during the time between Ishmael and Mohammad.
Something that the non-Yehudim had lost during the time between Ishmael and Mohammad.
also with regards to Crstanity (which is included in the opening post topic):
Mohammd's message to remind people of monotheism was also directed to Chrstians.
it seems to me nowadays that Crstnity is considered by many to be monotheism. But at Mohammd's time (and to some extent still today) around the year 600 to say that a human being (JC) is equal to God is considered idolatry.
in monotheism there is one God. the messengers (Mohammad, JC, Abraham, Moses) are human people who instruct us to connect to God. But they are not God. They are the envelope delivering the message. The message is God. We don't worship the envelope.
Each of those human people delivered a message and a teaching that was to return people to the one God, a reminder of monotheism, the Creator who makes everyone and everything.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-27-2017 at 11:38 AM..
also with regards to Crstanity (which is included in the opening post topic):
Mohammd's message to remind people of monotheism was also directed to Chrstians.
it seems to me nowadays that Crstnity is considered by many to be monotheism. But at Mohammd's time (and to some extent still today) around the year 600 to say that a human being (JC) is equal to God is considered idolatry.
in monotheism there is one God. the messengers (Mohammad, JC, Abraham, Moses) are human people who instruct us to connect to God. But they are not God. They are the envelope delivering the message. The message is God. We don't worship the envelope.
Each of those human people delivered a message and a teaching that was to return people to the one God, a reminder of monotheism, the Creator who makes everyone and everything.
Crstanity had made the same incorrect translation per Strong's:
Crstanity didn't actually choose to be idol worshipers in their own sort of way. They had to revise their version so the Romans wouldn't see them as Yehudim which is the version they follow today. There are more than the four gospels, but the others follow a track more in line with Yehudim than in line with the current version of Crstanity.
Muslims are those who are submitting themselves to the one created them.
I thought the Jews and Christians are doing the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Yes.
Jews and Crstns are doing the same.
all are doing monotheism
not all are Muslim.
Tzaphkiel,
It seems as if I somehow missed most of your post. I will now respond to it in full.
We do not "do" monotheism. We believe in monotheism (believe in one God).
After believing, a Believer (momin in Arabic) submits to God by obeying any commands from Him and comply with any guidance from Him. That's when s/he actually is a "muslim" or "musliman" (in Arabic).The sum total (as a result) of obeying the commandments and guidance is described in my post 51 quoted below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
In Islam, according to the Qur'an, to be considered righteous for the world to come requires just two things:
Believing and doing good to others, earthly life and earthly environment to protect and preserve humanity on earth.
The above is the sum total of all the laws whether religious or secular. Humanity must come first if we are to be righteous people and godly people.
In other words, a Muslim who submits to God is believing in One God AND doing good to others, earthly life and earthly environment to protect and preserve humanity on earth.
The above is not being done by all those who call themselves Muslim, Jew or Christian but only those who meet the above criteria to be considered righteous for the world to come.
So as you can see, just monotheism (believe in One God) on its own is not good enough to be regarded as righteous. One has to actually "do" more.
[Qur'an 29.2] Do people think that they will be left alone on saying, We believe, and not be tested?
The test comes when one has to actually obey the commands and do according to the guidance given in any message from God.
This is where someone who only calls himself "Muslim" may not be actually a Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
because in English the word Muslim means "follower of the religion Islam"
Jews are "follower of the religion Judaism"
Crstns are "follower of the religion Crstnty"
These are not the correct descriptions of the three people. A Jew could be a secular Jew or not having born to a mother who herself is not a Jewess. A Muslim could be doing nothing that a Muslim is supposed to do to be considered righteous but just proclaims monotheism could be called a believer but not a Muslim. Such person may not be even Believer if s/he does not do as God wants him to do. One can't be Believer if s/he rejects a message from God.
A righteous person will not kill a peaceful person of any religion or of no religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
God is over everything. People do not have a problem with that.
However when Islam tries to claim all history is Islam, people have a problem with that.
How do you come to that conclusion? What is claimed by Islam and what is the problem that people have and why?
Nobody is claiming that ALL Israelites were Muslims. Those who had worshiped the golden calf were Israelites but not neither "muslim" nor "Muslim".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
When Islam tries to erase the history of that which is NOT Islam, people have a problem with that.
Islam certainly does not try to erase any history. It describes religious side of the history as a reminder of what went before the Qur'an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
When Islam tries to claim all people are Muslim, people have a problem with that.
First of all, Islam has never claimed that ALL people are Muslim.
If you do not want to be known as Muslim (someone who submits to God by obeying Him) then you are free to be known otherwise. Muslims can't take your right away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
regarding the opening post:
Most people can understand how the word "muslim" in Arabic can be used to mean "submits to the one Creator."
Can the Muslims posting on this board understand why people object to saying all people are Muslim?
I certainly understand why; politicians have made them think that "Muslim" mean "terrorist". I can understand the objection, as they are not terrorists they don't want to be called Muslim. I too have objection to be called Nazi or Kafir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
and why people object to saying all history belongs to Islam?
Who said that? I can't remember my saying that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
and why people object to destroying and denying historic records buildings and artifacts of non-Islamic peoples, cultures, religions, and civilizations?
Not all Muslims do that. So please don't blame all Muslims for destroying such things.
Having said that, there are people who have objection to preserving the religious history by clearing the build up of household garbage from a certain religious center and bringing it back to a place of worship. Such people now want to erase 13 centuries old Islamic history.
So the answer to your question here depends on the angle you are looking at history and from angle you are looking at the words "Muslim" and "Islam". I can see the whole both the angles whereas you may be looking at it from only the one angle.
... What is claimed by Islam and what is the problem that people have and why?
Islam certainly does not try to erase any history. It describes religious side of the history as a reminder of what went before the Qur'an.
First of all, Islam has never claimed that ALL people are Muslim.
Who said that? I can't remember my saying that.
it is the view that is described in the video in the opening post.
it is a view that is put forth regularly and frequently by Muslims around the world that every person on the planet is born a Muslim
Woodrow well known on CD for instance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
...There are even many Muslims unaware they are Muslims. Nearly 4/5 ths of the people on earth are not even aware that at one time they were Muslim. Every human from the time of their birth until they reach the age of being able to make a freewill informed choice is performing Islam...
Khalif, can you understand why people have a problem being told that every person on the planet is born a Muslim?
From Adam onward throughout all of human history, every person in every country in every family including their own babies and grandchildren, they are all born Muslim....can you see why people object to that?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-27-2017 at 05:38 PM..
I finally had the light bulb.
Flash!
I got it.
But it has to start with language, descendants of Abraham speak. As it does not really make sense in other languages.
My assumption is that, semantically, in those languages, every person believing in Abrahamic god is a Muslim. According to the word meaning.
But then, you have Mahometans, Christians and people of Judaic religion.
I think, where problem begins is that Mahometans keep being called Muslims in BOTH the original meaning AND in the meaning of Mahometan. While say Christians and Judaic folks stopped being called Muslims. For reasons whatever, beyond this discussion.
Ad hoc. Christians should be called Yeshuans, as followers of Yeshua (original name), akin to Mahometans, followers of Mahomet. Christos simply means anointed.
But that is also separate conversation and not worth it, really. It is what it is.
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