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Judaism recognizes that if a non-Jew follows the 7 Noachide laws it is a valid path to God. A person who accepts these obligations is considered a righteous person who is guaranteed a place in the world to come.
Even the Jews before exodus were following the 7 Noachide laws and were considered righteous people.
The point to note is why these 7 laws were increased during the Sinai revelation. What was the need to increase them?
My belief is that Muhammad was not given any new law. It is said in the Qur'an that I have not said anything to you that I have not said to the messenger before you. Therefore, we are not following any new laws but the laws already in existence before the Qur'an. The Qur'an only verifies them. The Qur'an is considered "reminder" of what has been given before.
I would like to think that the Qur'an is trying to bring all divided believers on the same platform. Laws are the same but ways of devotion vary. It is not a big deal whether we call "Allah", "God" or "G-d". We are saying the same thing.
In Islam, according to the Qur'an, to be considered righteous for the world to come requires just two things:
Believing and doing good to others, earthly life and earthly environment to protect and preserve humanity on earth.
The above is the sum total of all the laws whether religious or secular. Humanity must come first if we are to be righteous people and godly people.
Even the Jews before exodus were following the 7 Noachide laws and were considered righteous people.
The point to note is why these 7 laws were increased during the Sinai revelation. What was the need to increase them?
My belief is that Muhammad was not given any new law. It is said in the Qur'an that I have not said anything to you that I have not said to the messenger before you. Therefore, we are not following any new laws but the laws already in existence before the Qur'an. The Qur'an only verifies them. The Qur'an is considered "reminder" of what has been given before.
I would like to think that the Qur'an is trying to bring all divided believers on the same platform. Laws are the same but ways of devotion vary. It is not a big deal whether we call "Allah", "God" or "G-d". We are saying the same thing.
In Islam, according to the Qur'an, to be considered righteous for the world to come requires just two things:
Believing and doing good to others, earthly life and earthly environment to protect and preserve humanity on earth.
The above is the sum total of all the laws whether religious or secular. Humanity must come first if we are to be righteous people and godly people.
You're comparing what was written in the Torah 2000 years before what was written in the Quran. For your argument to hold any value then you need to supply some middle document that at a minimum predates Christianity. Any.
I have just written both words in Arabic. Can you read them?
Yes, the name (Judaism) developed later on. We know this because even Moses didn't mention this name.
As for Abraham or his descendants, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph following much of the Mosaic law even before these laws were given after the exodus, it makes no sense to reveal them if they were already being followed. I believe even following Torah before it was given is a later development to link the genealogy religiously. It is not a good attempt.
Abraham did not start anything that is man-made. Monotheism existed even before Abraham but much of it had been forgotten through widespread idol worshiping. Abraham thought that the idol worshiping is not correct and the only way. He thought that monotheism is the way. That doesn't mean that Abraham created it.
This is where Judaism messed it up. Man-made laws are mixed with the divine laws and the mixture became Judaism. Even the name is linked to a man. A religion made up of only the divine laws cannot be named after a man.
Then these laws must have been revealed to Noah and were religious laws rather than man-made laws.
If they were all Jews, they were same people. Why different laws and different religion before and after Sinai (if you think job is the religion)?
It is obvious that there were different covenants since Abraham throughout his generations till Moses was given another one. It was different covenant to different generation and finally the Torah with increased laws (from the 7 laws).
If you're going to compare two religions and their languages then English needs to be taken out of the mix. It needs to be comparing Hebrew versus Arabic, Mediterranean Aramaic versus Red Sea Aramaic.
I have just written both words in Arabic. Can you read them?
Nope. Fortunately, I have no interest in reading them. But at least you aren't making a mistake in English
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
As for Abraham or his descendants, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph following much of the Mosaic law even before these laws were given after the exodus, it makes no sense to reveal them if they were already being followed.
Sure it does -- to the rest of the people as a binding construct with more detail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
I believe even following Torah before it was given is a later development to link the genealogy religiously. It is not a good attempt.
OK, Judaism believes otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Abraham did not start anything that is man-made.
Such is your belief. In Jewish belief, the innovation of Abraham's monotheism was that it was achieved without divine revelation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
This is where Judaism messed it up. Man-made laws are mixed with the divine laws and the mixture became Judaism. Even the name is linked to a man. A religion made up of only the divine laws cannot be named after a man.
You and I disagree on this. The Torah text instructs the people to listen to the laws and judgments of the people charged with that responsibility. And as to "naming" conventions, a religion can be named "fred" -- this doesn't affect what the religion stands for or expects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Then these laws must have been revealed to Noah and were religious laws rather than man-made laws.
You are missing the point. If someone else, to whom these were not revealed, obeys them simply because he is being a moral person then his practice, though not divinely inspired, is a valid one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
If they were all Jews, they were same people. Why different laws and different religion before and after Sinai (if you think job is the religion)?
There are different laws for different Jews. And there are different laws for Jews and non-Jews. There are different jobs for different people. Not everyone has to have the same job. There are different laws for people of different ages. Not every 5 year old is ready to do the job a 25 year old can do.
...
My belief is that Muhammad was not given any new law. It is said in the Qur'an that I have not said anything to you that I have not said to the messenger before you. Therefore, we are not following any new laws but the laws already in existence before the Qur'an. The Qur'an only verifies them. The Qur'an is considered "reminder" of what has been given before.
I would like to think that the Qur'an is trying to bring all divided believers on the same platform. Laws are the same but ways of devotion vary. It is not a big deal whether we call "Allah", "God" or "G-d". We are saying the same thing.
In Islam, according to the Qur'an, to be considered righteous for the world to come requires just two things:
Believing and doing good to others, earthly life and earthly environment to protect and preserve humanity on earth.
The above is the sum total of all the laws whether religious or secular. Humanity must come first if we are to be righteous people and godly people.
So then if previous messengers delivered same message, and it is "not a big deal if devotions vary," and it is a reminder of what was given before....
....then (if I understand you correctly) that recognizes people can connect with God and do good to others through different traditions and through different religions.
Am I understanding you correctly?
Or are you saying everyone must eat tacos only no other food, speak Swahili only no other language, those are my analogies to everyone must be Muslim follower of the religion Islam.
You're comparing what was written in the Torah 2000 years before what was written in the Quran. For your argument to hold any value then you need to supply some middle document that at a minimum predates Christianity. Any.
The Torah written 2000 years before what was written in the Qur'an? I am not sure what you are suggesting here.
The Torah written at the time you suggest has been lost, destroyed during the Babylonian attack and captivity of the Jewish people. They had to rewrite the Torah through their memory about 1200 years before the Qur'an was compiled and written down in one book. It is in the rewritten Torah that you will find more than 7 laws.
The Qur'an verifies what was with them (the Jews in Madina). The Qur'an also tells us that the dietary laws were not given to Jacob (Israel). These were given to the Children of Israel later on. The same is true of Sabbath. Earlier Israelites did not observe Sabbath. The Qur'an tells us why it was ordained.
Nope. Fortunately, I have no interest in reading them. But at least you aren't making a mistake in English
Actually I did make a mistake or two in English. I didn't think that such minute details would be questioned. This is why I wrote الْإِسْلَامُ in Arabic (the islam in English). But of course this is not going to be noticed unless someone is fluent in Arabic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Sure it does -- to the rest of the people as a binding construct with more detail.
This raises two questions:
(1) 7 Noachide laws are sufficient to be considered righteous for the world to come.
(2) If the Jews were already observing more than that then there was no need to give more details. Why make it a binding contract (construct?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
OK, Judaism believes otherwise.
OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Such is your belief. In Jewish belief, the innovation of Abraham's monotheism was that it was achieved without divine revelation.
He did think about it but never achieved it without divine revelation. What makes you think that Abraham innovated monotheism without any divine revelation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
You and I disagree on this. The Torah text instructs the people to listen to the laws and judgments of the people charged with that responsibility. And as to "naming" conventions, a religion can be named "fred" -- this doesn't affect what the religion stands for or expects.
Laws are from God. They are not from those who are made responsible to implement them and judge by them. Fred can only follow the law from God. He can't present it as it is from him or mix it with his own laws. It can't become Fredism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
You are missing the point. If someone else, to whom these were not revealed, obeys them simply because he is being a moral person then his practice, though not divinely inspired, is a valid one.
But the point is that they were revealed. If they were secular laws then they were not for the preparation of the world to come but only for the life on earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
There are different laws for different Jews. And there are different laws for Jews and non-Jews.
Why should there be different laws for different Jews, was really my question. Also why different laws for the Jews and the non-Jews? What is wisdom behind it?
...
Why should there be different laws for different Jews, was really my question. Also why different laws for the Jews and the non-Jews? What is wisdom behind it?
for the same reason some people are electricians, and some people are doctors, and some people are musicians.
if someone would ask you why are there different jobs that people do, what would you tell them?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-21-2017 at 12:49 PM..
So then if previous messengers delivered same message, and it is "not a big deal if devotions vary," and it is a reminder of what was given before....
....then (if I understand you correctly) that recognizes people can connect with God and do good to others through different traditions and through different religions.
Am I understanding you correctly?
If the messengers delivered the same message then the religion is the same from God for the mankind. God declares it in Arabic as al-islam (the islam) which means submitting (to God) which is done by obeying God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Or are you saying everyone must eat tacos only no other food, speak Swahili only no other language, those are my analogies to everyone must be Muslim follower of the religion Islam.
I am not saying that the Jews have never been "muslimeen" (Muslims in English), or their religion has never been "the islam" (Islam in English). I am also not saying that they should never have called their religion "Judaism". I just do not see the name "Judaism" in the Torah given to Moses. As long as they believe and do good, they are righteous people deserving a place in the world to come.
Why should there be different laws for different Jews, was really my question. Also why different laws for the Jews and the non-Jews? What is wisdom behind it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
for the same reason some people are electricians, and some people are doctors, and some people are musicians.
if someone would ask you why are there different jobs that people do, what would you tell them?
I won't tell them that it is their religions and they are doing these jobs to get a place in the world to come.
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