Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In my experience, I believe that sums up most internet atheists. I'm sure there are exceptions, of course.
Our experiences differ.
I was referring to people I have encountered face to face.
Internet atheists tend to be more cerebral about their reasons. They have encountered arguments for and against atheism, various flavors of theism, are conversant with logical fallacies and usually have a decent understanding of apologetic arguments.
Speaking only for myself, I have been an atheist for over thirty years. It isn't anger or trauma based, although you have to take my word on that. I discuss the topic because I find it to be an amusing past time, and because I think that thinking clearly is beneficial to society as a whole.
I was referring to people I have encountered face to face.
Internet atheists tend to be more cerebral about their reasons. They have encountered arguments for and against atheism, various flavors of theism, are conversant with logical fallacies and usually have a decent understanding of apologetic arguments.
Some, perhaps. But not always. I think a lot of internet message boards don't encourage honest, cerebral discussion. It's easy to simply copy/paste off the web and think you've come up with the magic bullet that will destroy any argument.
Quote:
Speaking only for myself, I have been an atheist for over thirty years. It isn't anger or trauma based, although you have to take my word on that. I discuss the topic because I find it to be an amusing past time, and because I think that thinking clearly is beneficial to society as a whole.
I get that. I've known atheists in real life that were simply nonreligious.
Some, perhaps. But not always. I think a lot of internet message boards don't encourage honest, cerebral discussion. It's easy to simply copy/paste off the web and think you've come up with the magic bullet that will destroy any argument.
.
I think you have to admit that this is true of religious advocates as well.
I am curious, a few pages back you asked for examples of bad dogma. You may have overlooked my post, but I am curious as to your thoughts, so I am going to be egotistical and quote myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
You probably have issues with my issues, and not everything I list will apply to you, but I think that the following are examples of bad dogma:
Infallibility of the Bible/Koran
Literal interpretation of the above, leading to a six day creation in the recent past.
Life and ensoulment beginning at conception
Forgiveness of sin based upon belief, regardless of actions
Different roles for men/women
I can probably come up with others, but I think that is a reasonable start.
I think you have to admit that this is true of religious advocates as well.
Agreed.
Quote:
I am curious, a few pages back you asked for examples of bad dogma. You may have overlooked my post, but I am curious as to your thoughts, so I am going to be egotistical and quote myself.
I did miss that. I agree that the Koran is a train wreck, and cannot possibly be infallible. As for the Bible? I'll disagree with you on that one, obviously. I just have never seen someone post a contradiction that can't be explained away. On the other hand...we know that Scripture is God-breathed, and I'm not ready to suggest that God would make a mistake. But this is not an essential doctrine. It's POSSIBLE to be a Christian and disagree with me on this.
Quote:
Literal interpretation of the above, leading to a six day creation in the recent past.
-- Again--not an essential.
Quote:
Life and ensoulment beginning at conception
THe Bible seems to suggest that life does begin at conception. I would not consider this an essential. Disagree? Ok.
Quote:
Forgiveness of sin based upon belief, regardless of actions
This is actually stated in Scripture.
Quote:
Different roles for men/women
Again...actually stated in Scripture.
Much of the above you referenced, I would argue with you for the fact that this is something that is actually stated in Scripture and is not simply some invention by human beings.
I did miss that. I agree that the Koran is a train wreck, and cannot possibly be infallible. As for the Bible? I'll disagree with you on that one, obviously. I just have never seen someone post a contradiction that can't be explained away. On the other hand...we know that Scripture is God-breathed, and I'm not ready to suggest that God would make a mistake. But this is not an essential doctrine. It's POSSIBLE to be a Christian and disagree with me on this.
-- Again--not an essential.
THe Bible seems to suggest that life does begin at conception. I would not consider this an essential. Disagree? Ok.
This is actually stated in Scripture.
Again...actually stated in Scripture.
Much of the above you referenced, I would argue with you for the fact that this is something that is actually stated in Scripture and is not simply some invention by human beings.
This is where I have some basic disagreements with you. On another thread truthteller is vainly trying to show the Koran as a book containing hidden, inspired truths about the universe. I agree with you, it is a train wreck, but I see the Bible as being a similar train wreck. You note that Biblical discrepancies can be explained away. Fair enough, although for the record I see those explanations as similarly weak as truth tellers attempts to prove the Koran.
You say that "we know scripture is God-breathed". From my point of view, that is an unproven assertion. I would even go so far as to call that dogma.
Catholics would disagree with you that forgiveness of sin based solely on belief is dogma. They believe in a blending of church authority and biblical statements. Based on their dogma, yours is incorrect.
Let's focus on this one if you don't mind.
I would argue that your dogma is harmful. It can lead to people taking the attitude that they can lie, cheat, steal, etc, with no ultimate repercussions. In fact, they will be rewarded in the afterlife despite their actions on this planet.
I agree that the Koran is a train wreck, and cannot possibly be infallible. As for the Bible? I'll disagree with you on that one, obviously. I just have never seen someone post a contradiction that can't be explained away. On the other hand...we know that Scripture is God-breathed, and I'm not ready to suggest that God would make a mistake. But this is not an essential doctrine. It's POSSIBLE to be a Christian and disagree with me on this.
If the quran is not infallible, then it cannot represent the direct Word of God. If that's the case, than a couple of billion Muslims are dead wrong in their most vehement belief, which is that the Quran was given directly to Mohammad, word for word, by the angel Gabriel. If this is untrue than the whole religion of Islam is based on a lie.Now this is the important bit, so give it some thought.All 2 billion Muslims are completely wrong in their most heartfelt beliefs, AND ARE COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF THAT FACT. They think THEY have it right, and don't know that they are wrong. Because of course they have each other to assure themselves that they, certainly, have gotten it right. All they have to do is ask each other. Of course for an even deeper assurance, they can ask their parents. Which, as in most cultures, is the gold standard for all things true and valid.
Which of course brings us to the Bible. Is the Bible inerrant, in your opinion? Or is there a little room for fudging around with what is contained there, according to your fundamentalism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
THe Bible seems to suggest that life does begin at conception. I would not consider this an essential. Disagree? Ok.
I am not disputing you on this, but I would like to know where this can be found in the Bible. If you don't mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Much of the above you referenced, I would argue with you for the fact that this is something that is actually stated in Scripture and is not simply some invention by human beings
Psalm 137:9
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.â€
Exodus 21:20-21
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
1 Timothy 6:1
"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered." - 1 Timothy 6:1
Leviticus 20:10
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
We do sort'a treat some of what is written in the Bible as, well, sort of guidelines rather than rules, I notice. Some we ignore entirely. Like this one:
Exod.21
[7] And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
And this one:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."
And then there is this one:
1 Timothy 2:12
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."
The decision as to whether or not the above passage should be considered valid seems to roughly divide along gender lines. And of course 1 Tim. is one of the disputed Pauline epistles. So it really comes down to just who 1 Tim. directly benefits, and whom 1 Tim. directly harms.
NOT simply the invention of humans beings? That all depends on what one has first declared to be inerrant. Like the Muslims have done for the Quran.
For most Christians, the Bible is a bunch of guidelines rather than actual rules.
If the quran is not infallible, then it cannot represent the direct Word of God. If that's the case, than a couple of billion Muslims are dead wrong in their most vehement belief, which is that the Quran was given directly to Mohammad, word for word, by the angel Gabriel. If this is untrue than the whole religion of Islam is based on a lie.Now this is the important bit, so give it some thought.All 2 billion Muslims are completely wrong in their most heartfelt beliefs, AND ARE COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF THAT FACT. They think THEY have it right, and don't know that they are wrong. Because of course they have each other to assure themselves that they, certainly, have gotten it right. All they have to do is ask each other. Of course for an even deeper assurance, they can ask their parents. Which, as in most cultures, is the gold standard for all things true and valid.
Yes. they are wrong.
Quote:
Which of course brings us to the Bible. Is the Bible inerrant, in your opinion? Or is there a little room for fudging around with what is contained there, according to your fundamentalism?
Yes. It's inerrant.
Quote:
I am not disputing you on this, but I would like to know where this can be found in the Bible. If you don't mind.
Jeremiah 1:5, Psalm 139:13,16
Quote:
Psalm 137:9
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.â€
Exodus 21:20-21
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
1 Timothy 6:1
"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered." - 1 Timothy 6:1
Leviticus 20:10
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
We do sort'a treat some of what is written in the Bible as, well, sort of guidelines rather than rules, I notice. Some we ignore entirely. Like this one:
Exod.21
[7] And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
And this one:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."
And then there is this one:
1 Timothy 2:12
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."
The decision as to whether or not the above passage should be considered valid seems to roughly divide along gender lines. And of course 1 Tim. is one of the disputed Pauline epistles. So it really comes down to just who 1 Tim. directly benefits, and whom 1 Tim. directly harms.
NOT simply the invention of humans beings? That all depends on what one has first declared to be inerrant. Like the Muslims have done for the Quran.
For most Christians, the Bible is a bunch of guidelines rather than actual rules.
That seems to be true for the "I used to be an atheist" crowd that I have met IRL. It's a small sample size to be sure, but in my experience, what they really mean is that they didn't go to church. I did meet one person who meant that she was non-Christian, therefore as a child she did not believe in The-one-true-god.
I have also briefly met a couple of "angry at god" atheists. I have known a couple of teenage rebellion types who were rebelling against strict fundamentalist parents, and one person who had undergone a significant amount of trauma. I suspect their atheism was going to be short-lived, as it really was anger fueled with little rational thought behind it.
Yes. I too have met some atheists who frankly were a worry and I would not have been at all surprised it it hadn't indeed been 'just a phase' and they would sink back into the fluffy airbed of godfaith.
It hadn't occurred to me, though that some of them may not even know what an "atheist..like me.." is even like.
Because you have declared it to be so. Because your beliefs are the inerrant beliefs. Because you have declared them to be so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Yes. It's inerrant.
Because you have declared it to be so. Because your beliefs are the inerrant beliefs. Because you have declared them to be so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Jeremiah 1:5, Psalm 139:13,16
What about those verses?
Jeremiah 1:
[5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Pss 139:
[13] For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
[16] Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Thank you for responding. This does however bring up an interesting side issue. God is telling Jeremiah, at least according to Jeremiah, that God designated him to be a prophet before Jeremiah was ever even formed in his mother's belly. Because God is omnipotent and omniscient. God made Adam and Eve from scratch, knowing exactly all of the actions of their lives from before their creation, and got exactly the result He expected to get. Because He is God and no other outcome but the one He intended was possible. The same is true for all of his creations, including Satan and the serpent. God brought Adam and Eve and the serpent together in the garden knowing exactly what would occur and when. And then God condemned Adam and Eve and the serpent and their progeny in perpetuity, for this "original sin" they they were created to commit. Believers claim that Adam and Eve and the serpent had complete free will, and have therefore only themselves to blame for for doing EXACTLY as they we created by God in the beginning to do. I could ask you, does this REALLY sounds like a fair and just God to you?
But I would rather ask you this. Where has God ever explicitly promised anyone free will?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
