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what's interesting though about this dogma is that it is identical in approach to that used by Islam as well, which states that everyone is born Muslim.
absolutely identical method and approach.
Trans, you have that in common with Muslims.
Not quite. You will recall that you claimed you had a God -concept at birth, and I took that point on board. I also suggested that there were other explanations for what you experienced that an innate theism, so to speak.
I don't know what your response is yet, but you willingness to accept that or reject it would show which of us has more in common with Muslim solid non -shifting adherence to Dogma.
I should point out that this is hardly Dogma according to Atheism - which rather than MY personal views - dogmatic or not - is the subject of discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
Not dogma. It is an opinion held by Transponder, and I don't agree with it. Attributing any belief, or lack thereof, to an infant is meaningless. They don't have a sufficiently developed intellect to really assign any value to degrees of belief, so claiming atheism is mere sophistry.
You seem to be confusing opinion or assertion with dogma.
There you go. Fishbrains disagrees. Not an atheist Dogma.
Well actually, I think he disagrees with you, not me. He argues that you couldn't have been developed intellectually enough to have a meaningful God -concept. Which is why I would say we are all born atheist- we have no concept of a god and so by default cannot have a god belief - until we are taught one.
Or as I was willing to discuss, we have an innate instinct to trust exploited to further religion.
Now, Fishbrains, If I say that babies of course cannot be considered rejectors of theist claims (a "Thinking" atheist, as I call them) but is a default atheist through having no god -concept to reject, would we be in agreement?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-29-2017 at 03:34 AM..
what's interesting though about this dogma is that it is identical in approach to that used by Islam as well, which states that everyone is born Muslim.
absolutely identical method and approach.
Trans, you have that in common with Muslims.
tzap, "born atheist" is a marketing slogan. Actually, for marketing, its a good one imo. Babies are born ignorant, not anything else. Its not a "fact" that one waste a whole lot of time fighting. It takes away from the real enemy ... selfishness and deceit for personal gain.
"religion is so dangerous I am justified in denying anything." or "my god only" are the real enemies.
"Dogma" seems like a heavier slogan to me. "Jesus died and woke up". I think its dogma because they tell me I have to believe that.
also, "dogma" has a negative connotation. "treat your neighbor like your kid" is dogma too, its just that its a good dogma. It doesn't bite my krama in the rear.
Since the only point worth a damn here is the one Fishbrains made, I'll ignore the dogmatically biased remainder, let Fishbraisns consider my argument, and see.
I may say I debated this at length on my first forum, and the opponent could only end up deploying a semantic argument. ''A- theist' implies a knowledge of God so as to reject it. Of course, labels do not define what a thing is.
Not dogma. It is an opinion held by Transponder, and I don't agree with it. Attributing any belief, or lack thereof, to an infant is meaningless. They don't have a sufficiently developed intellect to really assign any value to degrees of belief, so claiming atheism is mere sophistry.
You seem to be confusing opinion or assertion with dogma.
I am very clear on dogma and how it is used which is why the dogma used by atheists is included in this thread topic and discussion.
dog·mat·ic
adjective
inclined to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true
dog·ma
noun
a principle or set of principles laid down as incontrovertibly true
something held as an established opinion, a definite authoritative tenet
Since the only point worth a damn here is the one Fishbrains made, I'll ignore the dogmatically biased remainder, let Fishbraisns consider my argument, and see.
I may say I debated this at length on my first forum, and the opponent could only end up deploying a semantic argument. ''A- theist' implies a knowledge of God so as to reject it. Of course, labels do not define what a thing is.
That is the sum total of what you yourself do trans, that is deploy semantic arguments. It is all a bunch of word play to you totally disconnected from personal experience totally disconnected from how a person applies it in their daily life.
As fishbrains says and I agree: sophistry
soph·ist·ry
noun
the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
I am very clear on dogma and how it is used which is why the dogma used by atheists is included in this thread topic and discussion.
You say that you understand the difference, but you act as if you don't. I am inclined to believe actions rather than words.
I could be wrong though, and I prefer to give my debate partners every chance to redeem themselves. Can you show me the source of this alleged atheist dogma?
@Transponder. You are correct. I didn't catch Tzap's claim that she knew god at birth. I don't believe it, and I don't think it is possible.
If you are going to qualify your thought and categorize infants as un-thinking atheists as opposed to thinking atheists, I would hesitantly agree with you, but it leaves open the possibility of claiming infants as unthinking theists as well. Arach rightly points out that it is a marketing slogan, and relatively effective as far as it goes. I might use it myself if accosted on the street by a fire and brimstone preacher, just to make a quick point, but I abandon it as soon as reasoned debate starts.
Tl;dr. Transponder, you are a heretic! You and your deviant atheist kind must be crushed!
You say that you understand the difference, but you act as if you don't. I am inclined to believe actions rather than words.
I could be wrong though, and I prefer to give my debate partners every chance to redeem themselves. Can you show me the source of this alleged atheist dogma?
See post 19 for examples of dogma used by atheists, and dogmatic posts from here on this forum. All are direct quotes.
I am not your debating partner and I have no interest in debate. I am participating in a discussion.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-29-2017 at 07:27 AM..
See post 19 for examples of dogma used by atheists, and dogmatic posts from here on this forum. All are direct quotes.
Again, you are confusing dogmatic behaviour with the existence of dogma. The two are in no way equivalent.
Many posters are dogmatic. I can be, you certainly are. Transponder often is, and cupper definitely was. That has NOTHING to do with dogma. Nothing at all. Completely unrelated. Dogmatic is a personality trait that describes a method of communicating. Dogma is an authoritative declaration of policy or belief. I can dogmatically assert that blue cheese is the best food in the ipuniverse. That doesn't mean that it is an authoritative statement of any type.
In post 19 you listed a number of assertions and opinions. Some may have been dogmatically promoted, others might be one-off comments. Either way, it doesn't matter. They are simply assertions and opinions, not dogma.
Do you want to take a second attempt and showing atheist dogma? This one failed utterly.
Just curious if there's been a transition for you and what was it like and when did it occur?
The transition for not deploying religious faith (believing asserted truth without a requirement of substantiation) was simultaneous with the dawning realization that it is a failed epistemology that actually does not tend to lead toward truth / reality and is horrible at either explaining or predicting outcomes in experienced reality.
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He argues that you couldn't have been developed intellectually enough to have a meaningful God -concept. Which is why I would say we are all born atheist- we have no concept of a god and so by default cannot have a god belief - until we are taught one.
