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Old 02-04-2018, 09:30 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,224 posts, read 2,834,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
It's not a conspiracy theory. The dominant image of Christianity in modern media (not talking about the news I'm talking about movies, music, television) is the right-wingers because they're the most obnoxious and make the most noise. It's the same reason mainstream Muslims are harassed in the West because our population is too stupid to educate themselves on the way the majority of people follow the religion and choose to believe anti-immigrant alt-right hoaxes that demonize these people. Look up any article, video, discussion about refugees in Sweden and see how quickly educated, informed people are torn apart by these idiots who believe in these lies. I hate to say it but much of the atheist community shows the same kind of ignorance. They allow a minority of Christians (Evangelical/charismatic protestants) represent the entire religion the same way right wingers let radical Islamists represent all Muslims.
You're not going to change the right-wing view of Christianity. They are the Christian fanatics, the zealots, and the theological fascists. They aren't going to give even so much as an inch to liberal Christianity.

And as long as the right-wingers are out there making the obnoxious noise that they do, like claiming the children who were murdered at the Ariana Grande concert brought their deaths upon themselves for listening to secular music, the young will very likely never get involved with religion at all.

In most respects, religion represents that rigid, authoritarian, "do as your told," rules structure that young people absolutely hate. Religion is seen as anti-fun, anti-enjoyment, anti-pleasure, and anti-freedom. What's more, the heavily sanitized "fun" that churches often offer seem fake to them -- with fake smiles, fake politeness, and fake friendliness that all goes out the window the moment the gossiping and tongue-wagging starts; inevitably cliques form within the church and ... well, you get the idea.

I know that's how it was with me and a large number of my friends. Oh sure, we're happy to take advantage of some of the activities a church offers -- but the young will take the activities and toss out the religion. The preaching and proslytizing will go in one ear and out the other. I remember once going to a church-sponsored skating party. I ended up "seducing" a cute guy during the sermon, neither of us paying any heed to the Christian mambo-jahambo being spewed at the front of the rink.

I think some people mistake attendence at an activity as interest in learning about Jesus -- because more often than not, it doesn't mean that at all. It simply means the young are bored, looking for something to do, and are hoping to meet potential lovers, paramours, and romances. God can go stuff himself for all many of them care.

Fact of the matter is -- the gay rights issue turned a lot of young people away from Christianity. The cross was even seen as another symbol of hatred, bigotry, and intolerance, the same as the swastika.

Invariably, religion will snag a few teens and young adults. That's inevitable.

However, being the closest thing to a "youth" this forum probably has to offer, I can say that those of us between 16 and 30, you've probably already lost, and lost for good.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
13,938 posts, read 7,776,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
I hate to say it but much of the atheist community shows the same kind of ignorance. They allow a minority of Christians (Evangelical/charismatic protestants) represent the entire religion the same way right wingers let radical Islamists represent all Muslims.
I would say that fundamentalist Christianity is doing most of the damage.

You still aren't owning them as a problem for Christianity though. You're just disassociating yourself from them and claiming that they aren't Real Christians.

I am of the view that liberal Christians do not speak out forcefully and directly enough against their fundamentalist bretheren. Maybe, like you, they'd rather pretend those people aren't representative of their faith. Maybe they don't want to seem unloving. Maybe it's less uncomfortable to oppose extreme right wing politics even though fundamentalist Christianity is a lot of the driving force behind it. Spares you guys the introspection maybe.

If you're talking about popular media portrayals of Christians leaning towards fundamentalism maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe you should be embarrassed and speak out against it rather than popular entertainments, which simply reflect what people perceive.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:34 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,224 posts, read 2,834,123 times
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I am of the view that liberal Christians do not speak out forcefully and directly enough against their fundamentalist bretheren. Maybe, like you, they'd rather pretend those people aren't representative of their faith. Maybe they don't want to seem unloving. Maybe it's less uncomfortable to oppose extreme right wing politics even though fundamentalist Christianity is a lot of the driving force behind it. Spares you guys the introspection maybe.
This ^ This ^ and This ^ again.

I remember just after the Sandy Hook shooting, the usual group of Christian 'tards were out in force trying to blame the shootings on taking prayer out of school, the legalization of gay marriage, liberalism, and the standard, ready-made list of perpetrators this group always whips out during times of national tragedy.

Of course, they never actually stop and wonder if, perhaps, THEY are the ones with whom God is angry. Of course not. It's always someone else. These are the descendents of those who, 700 years ago, blamed the Black Death on everyone from Jews to women to the clergy to cats. They would have blamed the plague on aliens from Zeta Reticuli before they would ever even think to blame it on their OWN sins.

But what amazed me this time was just how many mainstream preachers actually rose up and spoke out against those poison-spewing, toxic fundamentalists -- most of whom just need to finally die or retire (I'm looking at you, Pat Robertson). In any event, I was practically giddy with excitement. Not only were many preachers from all kinds of denominations speaking out against those Toxic Warriors, the media actually gave them a fair amount of coverage.

I thought that was a step in the right direction, at least.

Whether or not the outrage within the mainstream and liberal Christians camps continues, well, that remains to be seen when the next tragedy occurs. However, I didn't see much from that side when the same usual 'tards tried to blame the young victims of the Ariana Grande massacre by saying those children cursed themselves by attending the concert in the first place. Yeah, it was *their* fault terrorists came in and shot hundreds of people. The terrorists themselves are innocent, I guess.

And why the f*bleep*k would the Christian God use fundamentalist MUSLIMS as a tools in the first place? All that does is make Islam look stronger and more assertive next to the weak, mewling Christian religion. Is that what Yahweh wants? Is that the image he's trying to project?

Makes no sense whatsoever.
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:31 AM
pdw pdw started this thread
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,461 posts, read 1,738,542 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I would say that fundamentalist Christianity is doing most of the damage.

You still aren't owning them as a problem for Christianity though. You're just disassociating yourself from them and claiming that they aren't Real Christians.

I am of the view that liberal Christians do not speak out forcefully and directly enough against their fundamentalist bretheren. Maybe, like you, they'd rather pretend those people aren't representative of their faith. Maybe they don't want to seem unloving. Maybe it's less uncomfortable to oppose extreme right wing politics even though fundamentalist Christianity is a lot of the driving force behind it. Spares you guys the introspection maybe.

If you're talking about popular media portrayals of Christians leaning towards fundamentalism maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe you should be embarrassed and speak out against it rather than popular entertainments, which simply reflect what people perceive.
I would never condemn someone's religion.
I dont consider fundamentalism a problem until they start claiming to be "real Christians" and telling baptized Christians they need to be saved. Theat being said their faith makes sense to them and I'm all for it. Do I agree with it? No. What pisses me off is that their essentially an entirely different religion but the secular world disregards this. They dont believe in the veneration of saints, something that has been essential to what was nearly the entire Christian faith for at least 1500 years. The sacraments like Communion are completely disregarded (Welch's grape juice as the blood of Christ instead of wine, "saved" instead of forgiven etc). I respect their religion and how it's bringing young people to Jesus but these people don't represent me and its frustrating in an increasingly uninformed world having to explain that.

The really hardcore people you're referring to in the posts above are complete nutjobs and any Catholic or mainline protestant will have an earful to say about them. These people are hated by almost everyone outside their little group of followers. I wouldn't doubt they get off on stirring the pot, delibrately controversial rather than actually saying these things becauze of their religious beliefs
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:36 AM
 
30,819 posts, read 6,651,401 times
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
It's what I long ago pointed out as proceeding with all the confidence of ignorance.
If I misunderstand you correctly, it's what I remarked on the Mystic thread - you don't need a Phd to recognize the smell of Bullcrap.
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:42 AM
 
30,819 posts, read 6,651,401 times
Reputation: 4386
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
It's not a conspiracy theory. The dominant image of Christianity in modern media (not talking about the news I'm talking about movies, music, television) is the right-wingers because they're the most obnoxious and make the most noise. It's the same reason mainstream Muslims are harassed in the West because our population is too stupid to educate themselves on the way the majority of people follow the religion and choose to believe anti-immigrant alt-right hoaxes that demonize these people. Look up any article, video, discussion about refugees in Sweden and see how quickly educated, informed people are torn apart by these idiots who believe in these lies. I hate to say it but much of the atheist community shows the same kind of ignorance. They allow a minority of Christians (Evangelical/charismatic protestants) represent the entire religion the same way right wingers let radical Islamists represent all Muslims.
You make a good point, but just as the Christians and Muslims feel the need to keep reminding us that they are not all fanatics, we unbelieving skeptics have to keep saying that we know that, and it is the fanatics we are trying to counter. We are not Bothered about the reasonable ones.

Now while we may attack the doctrines, dogmas and rationale of this or that religion, that is an academic debate. It is not one with the political (almost) urgency of countering the very real danger of the extremists.

Once you understand that, you should realize that you should be helping us, and by protesting at what we do, you have been fooled into SUPPORTING Extremism simply because they profess to believe the same religion that you do. In fact, as you said yourself, it is nothing like the same.
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:07 AM
 
30,819 posts, read 6,651,401 times
Reputation: 4386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
You're not going to change the right-wing view of Christianity. They are the Christian fanatics, the zealots, and the theological fascists. They aren't going to give even so much as an inch to liberal Christianity.

And as long as the right-wingers are out there making the obnoxious noise that they do, like claiming the children who were murdered at the Ariana Grande concert brought their deaths upon themselves for listening to secular music, the young will very likely never get involved with religion at all.

In most respects, religion represents that rigid, authoritarian, "do as your told," rules structure that young people absolutely hate. Religion is seen as anti-fun, anti-enjoyment, anti-pleasure, and anti-freedom. What's more, the heavily sanitized "fun" that churches often offer seem fake to them -- with fake smiles, fake politeness, and fake friendliness that all goes out the window the moment the gossiping and tongue-wagging starts; inevitably cliques form within the church and ... well, you get the idea.

I know that's how it was with me and a large number of my friends. Oh sure, we're happy to take advantage of some of the activities a church offers -- but the young will take the activities and toss out the religion. The preaching and proslytizing will go in one ear and out the other. I remember once going to a church-sponsored skating party. I ended up "seducing" a cute guy during the sermon, neither of us paying any heed to the Christian mambo-jahambo being spewed at the front of the rink.

I think some people mistake attendence at an activity as interest in learning about Jesus -- because more often than not, it doesn't mean that at all. It simply means the young are bored, looking for something to do, and are hoping to meet potential lovers, paramours, and romances. God can go stuff himself for all many of them care.

Fact of the matter is -- the gay rights issue turned a lot of young people away from Christianity. The cross was even seen as another symbol of hatred, bigotry, and intolerance, the same as the swastika.

Invariably, religion will snag a few teens and young adults. That's inevitable.

However, being the closest thing to a "youth" this forum probably has to offer, I can say that those of us between 16 and 30, you've probably already lost, and lost for good.

Hi Shirina Yes. Several talks on the Pew results (while both sides tend to cherry -pick the results to fit what they would like to believe) the reason for irreligion is about 30% don't believe (and deconversion stories so often put that down to research or listening to what others have found out), 20% dislike of church attitudes (the anti -gay things has turned a Lot off) and 10% the Catholic Pedophile priest scandal, and a lot of that was not so much what they did - paedopfiles will often look for suitable lurking places from which to ambush the victims - but the official cover -up; that's what shocked. They KNEW but covered it up to protect the reputation of Catholicism (1). That is just 10% but it one one really big hit - Televangelist con -men don't get a mention at all.

(1) and I see no reason to believe that they are not still covering it it up. I weekly await another breaking scandal.

So we do the research and explain the findings. We say we are for freedom, fun and live how you like - responsibly and with concern for others. That has got to appeal to kids, because not only does it consent to what they like but it says 'we think you are responsible grown ups - we don't say 'don't do this' (even on misplaced Right Wing morality, let alone the rules on books of fairy tales), but do this with consideration for yourself, and for others.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:52 PM
 
352 posts, read 351,014 times
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Science will never be able to explain certain aspects we as humans are limited to. If you open your mind up you realize how limited we are with what we have and its going to be extremely difficult to prove so many things just scientifically for several hundred years. I say this as an agnostic person and as someone with no hardcore belief system. But I just think its foolish when people are all for either religion or all for science.. We are actually fine with both being what they are.. What a concept..
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:33 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,224 posts, read 2,834,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbtornado View Post
Science will never be able to explain certain aspects we as humans are limited to. If you open your mind up you realize how limited we are with what we have and its going to be extremely difficult to prove so many things just scientifically for several hundred years. I say this as an agnostic person and as someone with no hardcore belief system. But I just think its foolish when people are all for either religion or all for science.. We are actually fine with both being what they are.. What a concept..
Sure, I can agree with this.

We will never be able to explain "why" a mother lost her son to a drunk driver.

Science will never explain "why" this person won the lottery and that person didn't.

Science will ever explain "why" the universe exists.

It will never explain "why" we are even here at all.

However, the erroneous assumption is that these types of question contain a "why" at all.

The human brain is hardwired to seek order out of chaos -- which is why we so often see faces and other familiar shapes within random patterns.

The operant word here being -- random. This is something the human mind cannot compute. We try so hard to find the order within the chaos of world events thinking there has to be a REASON.

The idea that, just perhaps, there was no reason, makes the brain short circuit. Luck, randomness, these things are unfathomable because there isn't an order to them. That's why they are random.

Science can tell us why the mother's son was killed by a drunk driver. It can give a medical "why" that caused the death. It can give a "why" based on physics outlining why these two cars met at the intersection when they did. Science can explain how and why a person is so impaired by alcohol consumption -- and suchlike.

But it can't explain why it had to happen at all ... in the first place.

I'm just not one who can put a god in there. I can only assume that my brain is hardwired much differently than others since randomness doesn't bother me, and I don't assume everything that happens must have been for a higher, grander purpose or plan. Sometimes things ... just happen.

I don't have any problem with people who have a spiritual take on the unexplainable -- but gods? No. Which is why I stick with science for the explanations of our natural world. Like many others, I'm an agnostic atheist and anti-theist.
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
15,227 posts, read 7,104,255 times
Reputation: 14947
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbtornado View Post
Science will never be able to explain certain aspects we as humans are limited to. If you open your mind up you realize how limited we are with what we have and its going to be extremely difficult to prove so many things just scientifically for several hundred years. I say this as an agnostic person and as someone with no hardcore belief system. But I just think its foolish when people are all for either religion or all for science.. We are actually fine with both being what they are.. What a concept..
That's a fair statement.

I am a science person (2 degrees in geology), and I know that science does not have all the answers and is sometimes (at least temporarily wrong).

But then there's the religious folks who think they have all the answers. THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
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