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Christians fail miserably to comprehend one vital rule of life: sensational stories like these involving Christians going to jail for upholding their personal beliefs in the face of law--these sensational stories have a "shelf life". They "have legs" (to coin reporter lingo) for a very short period. Then when all the hoopla dies out and the story disappears from the headlines nobody cares about people like Kim Davis. Ask anyone today who Kim Davis is and they'll say, "Who?".
These Christian nuts believe Jesus will descend to miraculously drop from the sky to bail them out of their predicaments and Jesus isn't going to do squat. They learn the hard way that when they pray nobody is listening except them, and a year later they're still in the situation they prayed for God to get them out of unless they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and found a way out by themselves. Such is the "power" of prayer.
I guess too much time went by for this nutjob without grabbing a headline or being politically relevant.
I was hoping to never hear that woman's name again. In fact, I had forgotten all about her until I saw this post - and all I could do is let out the longest, heaviest sigh in human history.
Fact is, she wouldn't HAVE those legal costs if she wasn't a fascist. Why should anyone but her pay for a choice SHE made all on her own. No else but her is responsible.
But this is what I've come to expect from people like her. No doubt she's a member of the Party of Personal Responsibility (we all know which party that is) and yet wants her own big welfare check to the tune of two-hundrend and twenty thousand dollars. If I collect that much on disability in 20 years, I'll be really really lucky.
People like her make me sick - the old "I just threw up a little in my mouth" phrase really applies here. Just wait - a year or two from now, she'll have her own book tour - the author of "How to Fight For Your Rights By Breaking the Law and Oppressing the Rights of Others - In One Simple Step."
Maybe she can do a book tour with Sarah Palin and her new book: "How to Stay Relevant - and Fail."
Do you even understand what a "moral duty" is, Jeff?
As a Christian, no doubt she thinks she gets her morality from the Bible. What she did by refusing to issue gay marriage licenses was to force her so-called "morals" onto the rest of society - and she has no right to do that.
You have it completely backwards. For the vast majority of our country's history, same sex marriage was not acceptable. We even had the Defense of Marriage act. ONLY in recent years did society, forced by the government, change their morals and force that change on Christians like Kim Davis.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
One thing that has pushed me from mere "atheist" to "anti-theist" is how far too many Christians in this country think they can use their shop counters, their pharmacies, their businesses, and their bakeries as their own private pulpit from which they can refuse service to people not in line with their SO-CALLED Biblical morality. And it doesn't matter what YOU believe in - those people don't care. You know what that's called? A complete, utter, and total lack of respect for other people's beliefs.
In reality, most business owners don't care what people do in their private lives. The point of conflict happens to be with gay marriage because it can directly involve the business owner. The irony is where is the respect for our beliefs? You seem to have no problem demanding that we check our beliefs at the door and pretend not to be Christians once we walk outside the church building. Heaven forbid someone even wants to have a cross memorial. Apparently atheists are so filled to the brim with hatred for Christianity that they can't stand the mere sight of a cross. Notice how you don't say anything against Muslim business or how about the gay business owner who throws Christians out of his store? You can't have it both ways.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
And no, I don't HAVE to respect her beliefs because she is using those beliefs in an aggressive, offensive manner - essentially using her position as a roadblock for gay couples to do what is LEGAL in this country: get married.
It's no different than those irritating pharmacists who refuse to honor a legal scrip for birth control and other contraception. They don't even care why you had it prescribed since birth control is often prescribed for a number of other common conditions aside from use as a contraception. I had two friends who took "the pill" to treat the psorisis.
But that doesn't matter to these idiots - the only thing that matters to them is their god. And ... that is a case in point why any religion that tells you to put god above any- and everything and everyone else is socially corrosive.
They are idiots because they choose to honor God before man? Only a idiot would think that fallible man's temporary laws are more important than God's laws.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
If you find yourself in a position where you can no longer do your job because your job requires you to commit an act you find immoral, you QUIT.
You do NOT sit there in that position and act as a blocker wall to everyone who needs you to fulfill your duty. What she did was the faith-based equivalent of a sit-down strike or just plain civil disobedience.
Is that really the American way? Either put up or get out. Tell me, what if the government passed a law requiring that government workers cut off all aid to elderly and disabled? Would you still claim it is wrong for the government worker to protest and not want to do their job? The immoral standard was forced on Kim. She had every right to protest against it. From a legal perspective, she had no right to expect to stay employed and get paid if she was not doing the job duties. But if people don't speak up then you don't see change like teachers refusing to do their job and eventually having their demands met. Was that wrong too?
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Originally Posted by Shirina
I have said many times that there are three categories of morality:
1) "Moral" morality: murder, theft, rape, pedophilia, torture, kidnapping, abuse, domestic violence, extortion, coersion - essentially these are acts that have victims and quite often does bodily harm, to say nothing of psychological and emotional harm.
2) Civil Morality: paying your taxes, obeying the speed limit, obtaining the proper permits for various projects, not parking in front of fire hydrants, etc.
3) Religious morality: marriage is for Christians, women should keep their heads covered, modesty rules, the best way to pray, profanity, fornication, and the like.
Of all three of those kinds of morality, the only WORTHLESS and unsubstantiated form of morality is religious morality. All that does is try to modify your behavior to conform to what some ancient goatherder thinks is the best way to live. If religious morality disappeared tomorrow, the only difference is that people would have greater freedom to make personal choices.
You have a very simplistic view of morality. If morality is so basic and obvious then why is it so debatable? Who gets to say your idea of morality is any better than another? I've even had people on this very forum try to make a case that it is good and moral to mock and run people down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
What Kim did was foist her religious morality onto every person who walked into her office - straight or gay. (Because being allowed a license while refusing it to others is also an exercise in moral discrimination.).
Her moral duty was not to sit there and refuse licenses to gay couples. Her moral duty was to either 1) QUIT or 2) obey the law - which is to issue legal marriage licenses to same-sex couples.
NO what society did is take something that is immoral and demand that Kim give her personal stamp of approval on it. Now if she had started the job in 2018 knowing that this would be required of her then she shouldn't have taken the job. Big difference.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
Because I can guarantee it that if restaurant employees stopped serving bacon because it offended their Muslim religious morals, those same Christians (including you, Jeff) would NOT be saying they had to perform their moral duty. You'd want your bacon ... now ... and your Muslim morals matter not a whit to me.
It depends on the cultural environment. Deny it all you want, but our country was founded on Christian principles. A melting pop of cultures and religions in one country will create conflict and it should be
in the best interests of everyone to work on solutions that can be equal and fair, not my way or the highway mentality which is what you propose. Put up or shut up basically.
Now if I moved to Saudi Arabia, guess what, I'm not going to find any restaurants serving me bacon. And I wouldn't throw a fit because I respect their beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
But, because you're a Christian and Kim is a Christian, you feel the need to bend over backwards in an effort to defend her - no matter what.
No ... matter ... what.
No because she is a Christian, you will always rant against them. NO matter what.
You have it completely backwards. For the vast majority of our country's history, same-sex marriage was not acceptable. We even had the Defense of Marriage Act. ONLY in recent years did society, forced by the government, change their morals and force that change on Christians like Kim Davis.
Stop this ignorant nonsense. Nobody has forced anything on Kim Davis. She was forcing Her bigotry on the public. It was NOT her job to decide who could marry who. As an official representative of Society, she was to administer what Society said was acceptable, NOT her personal morality. She was not forced to marry a woman. So your nonsense about forcing her to abandon her morals is preposterous. Her job has nothing to do with anyone else's morals and certainly nothing to do with her personal morals. So, knock it off. Your desire to dictate morality to anyone other than yourself is NOT acceptable. You will account for your morals, NOT anyone else's.
Stop this ignorant nonsense. Nobody has forced anything on Kim Davis. She was forcing Her bigotry on the public. It was NOT her job to decide who could marry who. As an official representative of Society, she was to administer what Society said was acceptable, NOT her personal morality. She was not forced to marry a woman. So your nonsense about forcing her to abandon her morals is preposterous. Her job has nothing to do with anyone else's morals and certainly nothing to do with her personal morals. So, knock it off. Your desire to dictate morality to anyone other than yourself is NOT acceptable. You will account for your morals, NOT anyone else's.
Again with the insulting hyperbole: "ignorant nonsense", "nonsense", "preposterous".
Again with the insulting hyperbole: "ignorant nonsense", "nonsense", "preposterous".
Who appointed you to personally criticize my posting style? Don't like it don't read them. Your unwanted, annoying, and capricious evaluations are just tedious.
...which it never will as long as some of us are still breathing...
If only that were true, but if things continue as they are (let the reader understand) the Bible could become the basis of the law of the land, before some who are standing (or sitting and typing at least) here taste death.
You have it completely backwards. For the vast majority of our country's history, same sex marriage was not acceptable. We even had the Defense of Marriage act. ONLY in recent years did society, forced by the government, change their morals and force that change on Christians like Kim Davis.
In reality, most business owners don't care what people do in their private lives. The point of conflict happens to be with gay marriage because it can directly involve the business owner. The irony is where is the respect for our beliefs? You seem to have no problem demanding that we check our beliefs at the door and pretend not to be Christians once we walk outside the church building. Heaven forbid someone even wants to have a cross memorial. Apparently atheists are so filled to the brim with hatred for Christianity that they can't stand the mere sight of a cross. Notice how you don't say anything against Muslim business or how about the gay business owner who throws Christians out of his store? You can't have it both ways.
They are idiots because they choose to honor God before man? Only a idiot would think that fallible man's temporary laws are more important than God's laws.
Is that really the American way? Either put up or get out. Tell me, what if the government passed a law requiring that government workers cut off all aid to elderly and disabled? Would you still claim it is wrong for the government worker to protest and not want to do their job? The immoral standard was forced on Kim. She had every right to protest against it. From a legal perspective, she had no right to expect to stay employed and get paid if she was not doing the job duties. But if people don't speak up then you don't see change like teachers refusing to do their job and eventually having their demands met. Was that wrong too?
You have a very simplistic view of morality. If morality is so basic and obvious then why is it so debatable? Who gets to say your idea of morality is any better than another? I've even had people on this very forum try to make a case that it is good and moral to mock and run people down.
NO what society did is take something that is immoral and demand that Kim give her personal stamp of approval on it. Now if she had started the job in 2018 knowing that this would be required of her then she shouldn't have taken the job. Big difference.
It depends on the cultural environment. Deny it all you want, but our country was founded on Christian principles. A melting pop of cultures and religions in one country will create conflict and it should be
in the best interests of everyone to work on solutions that can be equal and fair, not my way or the highway mentality which is what you propose. Put up or shut up basically.
Now if I moved to Saudi Arabia, guess what, I'm not going to find any restaurants serving me bacon. And I wouldn't throw a fit because I respect their beliefs.
No because she is a Christian, you will always rant against them. NO matter what.
This was to Shirina and not me, but i have to disagree with you. Appeal to tradition is a fallacy. Just because something was done for thousands of years (for example, slavery) does not justify trying to continue it. Morality moves forward because it is Human morality that we use (or ought to) and that is where you are wrong the second time - human morality changes like society and what it understands, because it evolves. Hopefully for the better. The usual suspects battle such changes all the time, very often using the Bible as authority.
Deny it as much as you like like, the country was founded on Humanist principles, not Christian. And, just as in Saudi Arabia (and indeed in a KL hotel ) you won't find bacon served, you can expect to find same sex marriage in the west and you don't throw a fit but accept it and move to another job (or another country - like saudi Arabia) if you don't like it.
Kim Davis was executing a public service (or rather, she was paid to, but refused to do it) and (though you love a 'Gay cake' debate) it is not a business. Now, you and i know that, though she ought to have quit if her job description changed so that it cut across her beliefs and morality, she was offered a compromise. Don't actually do the job she is paid for but don't stop others from doing it. Mercy rather than justice.
That said, she wants the public to stump up for her costs? Let the Christian Fundamentalists who egged her on to make an issue of this pay her costs.
You are wrong in all your points and not least in playing the 'personal bias' card. There are Christians who are ok with same -sex marriage. This is not about religion, but bigotry, and if that stems from a particular religious view, that has to be understood, but it Not the reason why the bigotry is opposed.
Everyone has a foriegn mentality of the bible in their head mostly from Christians who don't understand the religion of the bible. If your child disrespects you, then you should take that child to the priest where he would be stoned to death. How many parents have you ever heard of that did this? Jews walk in a Judaism, a religion of God where God assures them that he never wanted all those sacrifices and yet, the law demands sacrifices. All the law does is to teach mercy, and God's laws were designed from the choice Israel made when they committed adultery against God while he was standing their about to marry them, become one with them in a marriage of flesh and spirit where their bodies would have given birth to immortality. They rejected God, and they rejected the covenant Moses brought down the first time, and since they chose another bridegroom in their adultery, Moses went right back up to the mountain to then bring down a law, and a temple design that was never intended, and this design came about from their choice, they chose the work of their own hands and God said,'' Fine, you commtted adultery and you chose a different lover. and now this is what you have chosen by your own choice IF YOU THINK you can bear an immortal son, go ahead and try but this is the only way you can accomplish it.
People who love and follow the law learn mercy, and that is why all the law can be said to simply come down to love amd mercy. It all comes down to loving your neighbor as you love yourself.
All God ever wanted from any of us was to love mercy, to do justly, and to walk humbly with our God KNOWING that we are all born in a fallen state, and the law proves that we cannot overcome death by the works of our own hands.
Jews don't believe they have to go and sacrifice for their sins, they have evolved into KNOWING that God loves them, and all he was ever trying to do was to teach mercy and love.........
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) you won't find bacon served, you can expect to find same sex marriage in the west and you don't throw a fit but accept it and move to another job (or another country - like saudi Arabia) if you don't like it.
