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Prayer is just a verbal expression of hope...and if things do go that way, then the hopes were realized.
That many implore "God" in their prayers is just using a metaphorical representation of that, "hope that things go as preferred". Others may be praying for the exact opposite outcome that some are praying for.
It is a perfectly normal thing (express hope that a preferred outcome might occur) to do...and one would have to be quite the miserable person to be bothered by it.
I liked the first part of your analysis.
But your last sentence -- it has nothing to do with being a miserable person, and that's a foolish idea. What it has to do with is being offended that millions of children are taught "false hope" that will not be realized, and that they continue to have this false hope throughout their lives. That we -- as a society -- offer up prayers to end hunger, to end wars, to get a cure for cancer...all of which never happens, except when by coincidence it does. It's the PROMISE -- as stated by several right here in this forum -- that god will intervene that is a lie...and in my view, you don't have to be a miserable person to be against lies.
Yep, either ‘side’. I may offer my opinion here and there (as I did in regard to prayer), but I think the continuous squabbles over the same material (some of it obviously ‘canned’ and unbelievable) over the course of years, would be ridiculously mind-numbing (especially when people continue to point out certain posters). Wouldn’t the logical solution be to ignore, then?
Creationists want to replace science with religion, fundamentalists want to replace secular morality with OT morality, we have people lying about atheists. I do not find it logical to allow this to continue unchallenged.
The problem is when the Fundy-think (atheist/theist)act pathological we that respond seem pathological. and this site pays at least one anti-religious to keep posting. weather it is nonsense or not is irrelevant ... just so long as they post.
the internet is like a brain. its about volume at this point. Keep posting middle of roader notions so that people lurking and/or passing by chance can get some middle of the roader of confirmation. If we just let fundy's post, people may think thats all we have to choose from.
My-god or deny-anything are just not rational positions this day and age.
this militant style atheism from across the Atlantic is dangerous.
It must be. It is making the mentally disturbed want to raise a standing army to kill them.
Thank you Goldie. But as usual you show the mindset you have in common with other Theistic apologists - ad hoc apologetics without the ability to think it through and assemble a Big Picture. I can, and I remember your argument from the sheer unbeatable numbers and influence of Christianity.
That is what bothers atheism and is what the Atheist Campaign is about. Indeed if you did not regularly adopt the true believer stance (fingers in ears, eyes screwed shut, mouth wide open) you would know that atheists in general do not care whether the individual Believer wants to fool themselves into crediting the efficacy of prayer as anything more than a placebo you don't even need to order online.
And leaving you aside, which is where your miserable attempts at argument deserve to be left, no offence intended I would invite those fellow baby-eaters who are interested in the Theistic mindset and the crummy lawyer tricks they use in the absence of any proper case, to observe how Gldnrain did this one.
A kernel of truth - sure anyone who got their knickers reversed because someone believed that prayer worked would indeed be a miserable specimen.
Strawman - suggesting that this is actually what is driving the New Atheist campaign. When one sees this particular inapplicability to generally applicable -fallacy, it becomes evident what a cunningly disguised but essentially boneheaded argument this is - one debating point in the whole Religious credibility argument is taken and made to look like that is the ONLY thing that atheists are getting all militant about.
It only remains for me to anticipate a 'I'm not religious'disclaimer.
Again, a failure to comprehend his own argument holistically. While he maintains a sort of non - theistic theism that goes no further than anything he might be called upon to prove, Goldie has consistently gone in to swing for Religion in general and Christianity in particular, because he loves to try to take down atheists, and particularly Forum atheists.
Thanx Trarq!...I can pretty much always count on you. You even threw a "Gldnrain" and a "miserable attempts at argument" in there! Cool!
All people "pray": Think/speak on the hope of a preferred/desired outcome or occurrence. That's normal.
Only miserable people would get on the case of those that believe in some "God/Deity/Creator/Higher Power" (and the vast majority do) they cite to entreat while thinking/speaking on that hope. Because it's really no big deal they do that. Things are gonna be how they are, no matter.
Creationists want to replace science with religion, fundamentalists want to replace secular morality with OT morality, we have people lying about atheists. I do not find it logical to allow this to continue unchallenged.
You will spend your time arguing/debating anything you want (even when it appears canned). I simply said, in my opinion, I don’t know how a person’s mind doesn’t turn to mush from doing so - especially when so much of it is clearly fake, unbelievable and/or said to get an inflammatory reaction (which was pointed out by other posters). It’s rather the same with prayer - some people may believe they are making a difference by praying (but that doesn’t mean they are).
Did anyone see the amazing news story this week about the couple lost at sea who decided to pray, then they were saved by a boat called "Amen".
Sounds like more Christian nonsense but let's go with the premise. God performs a great miracle and saves a Christian couple (naturally they're Christian--God doesn't perform miracles for heathens who ignore him--talk about an inferiority complex!). What about the other thousands of Christians stranded on boats who prayed for a boat named Amen to come rescue them and they drowned? What happened to their prayers????
Wouldn’t common sense suggest, then, to ignore Goldie? (Rather than continue the same tired arguments over years, as some have indicated). I don’t know how it doesn’t turn one’s mind to mush after awhile, if you even believe the half of it.
It never hurts to expose fallacious arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Thanx Trarq!...I can pretty much always count on you. You even threw a "Gldnrain" and a "miserable attempts at argument" in there! Cool!
And all without charge.
Quote:
All people "pray": Think/speak on the hope of a preferred/desired outcome or occurrence. That's normal.
Only miserable people would get on the case of those that believe in some "God/Deity/Creator/Higher Power" (and the vast majority do) they cite to entreat while thinking/speaking on that hope. Because it's really no big deal they do that. Things are gonna be how they are, no matter.
Of course. That is accepted.The Atheist campaign is focussed on bigger matters than just the instinct to prayer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Sounds like more Christian nonsense but let's go with the premise. God performs a great miracle and saves a Christian couple (naturally they're Christian--God doesn't perform miracles for heathens who ignore him--talk about an inferiority complex!). What about the other thousands of Christians stranded on boats who prayed for a boat named Amen to come rescue them and they drowned? What happened to their prayers????
That's the kicker - when prayer doesn't work, we don't get to hear about it. Except in particular cases like Sentinel island - and didn't they try to make that some kind of Martydom?
Yep, either ‘side’. I may offer my opinion here and there (as I did in regard to prayer), but I think the continuous squabbles over the same material (some of it obviously ‘canned’ and unbelievable) over the course of years, would be ridiculously mind-numbing (especially when people continue to point out certain posters). Wouldn’t the logical solution be to ignore, then?
That would be the rational thing to do but then who would they have to talk to or claim victomhood to, themselves? and agnostics and others would eventually flood the R/S forum with various topics...this method/technique helps to keep the forum stagnant until someone cries uncle.
Yep, exactly - and shams meant to keep the argument going.
It's been going on for decades -and will probably go on a lot longer. Your own contribution here has helped it along a bit
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I would invite those fellow baby-eaters who are interested in the Theistic mindset and the crummy lawyer tricks they use in the absence of any proper case, to observe how Gldnrain did this one.
