Leaving the Witness (atheism, believing, perspective, Earth)

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes

You do? You know what your god thinks? Is that not the definition of arrogance?



I do not think your god wrote 1 John.

The Fathers will is located within the pages of the bible. It takes years of study to learn to live by EVERY utterance from God as Jesus told man they have to. Many men know Gods will. There is no arrogance involved. Just years of study.
God inspired the writings in the bible( barring the errors translated in by the religion that came out of Rome.

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by 303Guy

You don't consider killing all the first borns of Egypt a sin?

God warned them in advance. God owns all of creation and created. He says what is allowed and what is not.
He also warned of Har-mageddon over 1900 years ago. It is drawing close.

[TroutDude]

[FreeVilley]

Originally Posted by hd4me

Not all perspectives or ways of thinking about life lead to enlightenment. In fact, it can be detrimental to the personal relationship with God that sincere worshipers seek.

How so? The earliest Christians were Jewish. Up through the times of Jesus Jews had a different take (perspective) on various ideas regarding God, life, death etc and that carried over to the earliest Christians. Even modern day Judaism is different in certain beliefs compared to what the early Jews believed. The prevailing philosophy and the environment existing during the early Christian period was Greek influenced. Some of the central ideas that modern day Christians accept as the orthodox were actually not what early Christians believed.

Do your own research and explore other ways of thinking. There is much info about how Greek philosophy influenced Christianity and Judaism. For example, this is just one source (not affiliated with Jehovah's Witnesses) that shows the impact such philosophy had:

"The western tradition, catholic and protestant, evangelical and liberal, charismatic and
social-gospel, has managed for many centuries to screen out the central message of the
New Testament, which isn’t that we are to escape the world and go to heaven, but rather
that God’s sovereign, saving rule would come to birth ‘on earth as in heaven."- https://digitalcommons.olivet.edu/cg...text=hist_mapt

I, and I'm not the only Jehovah's Witness parent, encouraged my children to learn about other perspectives. What do Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc believe? What are the basic teachings of evolution? Every high school biology class will expose students to evolution and JWs are no exception. My wife and I had discussions about the Bible, the Genesis account, and what evolution teaches with our children. It solidified their belief in an intelligent Creator. If a person is going to talk to people (eg preach and teach) one should have an understanding of the various ideas that will be encountered. However, obviously some had a different experience raised as JWs and my personal opinion is that's something between them and their parents.

Hopefully people will see the wisdom to be choosy about the time and energy devoted to certain perspectives and activities because not all are advantageous.

Not sure where the "JW criteria on what should be taught" comment is derived from. What is taught in the Bible isn't popular but for what its worth there is a Scriptural basis for being cautious about the time and energy committed to certain activities.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."-Colossians 2:8

“Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes,and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."-Matthew 6:19

"Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you."-Matthew 6:33

I Would like for you and your family to get up on stage of the theocratic ministry school meeting one night and reenact this open minded examination of philosophy, evolution and world religions, then successfully NOT get called into “the back school” for a conversation. What you are stating you practice is not acceptable by the “discrete slave”

I was very engrossed in the JW religion about 15 years ago and i had heard the following phrases “no room for independent thinking” and that like in the days of Noah, of you were confined to the walls of the organization, like the walls of the ark, you would be lead to destruction.... etc...

I left “the truth” shortly after I realized it wasn't..... The foundation of the religion and organization is too shady to be God ordained and infalliable.....Thenfocus on Armaggedon is very real, and after being told that “millions now living will never die” speaking of the generation alive during 1914, i find it harder and harder to believe a remnant of people born over 105 years ago are going to make it to the great tribulation.

I haven't been in a kingdom hall in 15 years, so i am curious if the calculation from Daniels prophecy is still the standard.

But yes, i derailed the establishment of my adult life because i was fearmongered into believing the great tribulation was breaking out any day back in 2002. Indontake some personal responsibility, for my personality traits that lead me to make certain decisions, but the organization should be losing plenty of credibility in todays information age.

[FreeVilley]

Originally Posted by kjw47

Gods view is all that counts in the end.( John 5:30, Matthew 7:21) God is the only one handing out life eternal in his kingdom.

Kjw47 is going to have major time on his publishers card this month. Auxiliary pioneering? I remember when JW weren't supposed to use the internet.

[jrpuff]

Originally Posted by kjw47

God warned them in advance. God owns all of creation and created. He says what is allowed and what is not.
He also warned of Har-mageddon over 1900 years ago. It is drawing close.

God warned all the infants and newborn children in advance? Did he also warn all the newborn children and innocent infants in advance for the flood? According to the Bible....their parents yes. But why would their children perish too? Answer me that please

[jrpuff]

Originally Posted by FreeVilley

I Would like for you and your family to get up on stage of the theocratic ministry school meeting one night and reenact this open minded examination of philosophy, evolution and world religions, then successfully NOT get called into “the back school” for a conversation. What you are stating you practice is not acceptable by the “discrete slave”

Right. It's not encouraged to do any research outside of the organization's publications. Don't even think about attending another church or temple, or talking with a pastor/priest/monk/whatever. I don't know if it's still in circulation, but when I was growing up the "go to" book I remember was "Reasoning From the Scriptures" in dealing with people of different faith when out in field service.

The definition of reasoning is: "the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way." But JW's and their publications do not encourage logical thinking. Rather, they tell you what and how to think. They even supply you with the questions. In their weekly meeting where the congregation gathers and they go over Watchtower articles, a conductor and a speaker will read paragraphs from the magazine and then ask a scripted question from each paragraph and people from the congregation will answer scripted answers. There really is very little reasoning allowed in truth, except what they permit.

[FreeVilley]

Originally Posted by kjw47

God warned them in advance. God owns all of creation and created. He says what is allowed and what is not.
He also warned of Har-mageddon over 1900 years ago. It is drawing close.

You are saying that God is above his own standards. He can kill, but others cannot. So people should juat accept that by faith. Faith causes you to reject reason. So when David Koresh or Jim Jones comes and says he is sent by God just like Moses was, then you use that same faith to accept that it is okay to kill/be killed.

Lets try this one:
God owns all creation, he can destroy or preserve who he wants. He can preserve people who are not jehovahs witnesses too. How does that make you feel?

Please read something not published by the watchtower, that is the very definition of brain washing.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by kjw47

The Fathers will is located within the pages of the bible. It takes years of study to learn to live by EVERY utterance from God as Jesus told man they have to. Many men know Gods will. There is no arrogance involved. Just years of study.
God inspired the writings in the bible( barring the errors translated in by the religion that came out of Rome.

Whether on calls it arrogance or honest error, the fault lies in believing what these authorities pronounce as true, and simply waving away anything that disagrees. I know, because I have seen it done on my doorstep and right here. Study 'within the box' of faith is one thing, but refusing to listen to those who stepped outside is an error, whether or not the continued fingers in the ears and loud claims of being right, no matter what anyone says, can be called arrogance or just faith-based denial. Which is what I call it.

[hd4me]

Originally Posted by ImissThe90's

And most of what JW's hear is apologetic nonsense. You talk as if someone doing research doesn't get the whole picture, but your religion goes out of its way to make sure its adherents don't get the whole picture. So I will take all of the many, many volumes of research over someone who is part of a religion who does all it can to sweep bad things under the rug, thanks. Especially when its adherents are known for being nothing but parrots themselves.

It also really cracks me up hear a JW talking about someone else being a "parrot". It really is quite hilarious, the disconnect you guys have with reality. It is somewhat impressive the lengths you go to, actually.



1. Hearing what JW's spout on a daily basis, they DO lack rational thought.
2. Yes, as you should be.
3. Yes, as you should be.
4. When you have to emotionally manipulate people to stay in the religion, and actively brainwash children before they are able to think for themselves, your religion IS garbage. If it can't stand on its own, why would you think otherwise?
5. Yes, as you should be.
6. Yes, as you should be.
7. Obviously you didn't read my post to Arach in regards to the "hate". Go back and read that, and maybe you will learn something.



Really? You tell that to all the children that were forced into it? Like the ones on this very thread? Again, the disconnect you have with reality is startling.



And if you didn't force children, and manipulate people into staying into your "religion", no one would care. The abuse and manipulation by YOUR religion is the problem, not the beliefs themselves. The lack of empathy and rationality is the problem, not the beliefs themselves.



I have an issue when the Bible is used to abuse children and manipulate vulnerable people. We all should, but since your religion does this, you look over it and act like it isn't a problem.



Okay, so why aren't the pedos disfellowshipped as soon as it is brought to the attention of your "elders"? Why is the child treated like garbage, instead of the molester?

See, you can talk about how it is sexual sins usually, or that you have rules about certain things, but unless you actually follow through with it, it means nothing. Fact is, there are people who lose their families because they had premarital sex or something, and pedos allowed to stay because there was only 1 kid being molested at the time.

It's disgusting.

Originally Posted by ImissThe90's

"Early Christians" didn't know that feces could cause you health issues when it was just put out on the street and ended up on their food. "Early Christians" did a lot of things, and we have grown out of almost every single one of them, as our knowledge grew. The JW's are still waiting to evolve to that point I guess...

Sorry, but as a child, being forced to attend of bunch of religious stuff, be unable to participate in any of your classmates birthdays, or any holidays, and many other things would make your life incredibly boring. If all there is for your kids is "Oh, I got a Nintendo and a bike!", then I feel sorry for them.



No, you just stop your kids from being a part of it, making them the outcasts. Must have been fun for them....

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

Whether on calls it arrogance or honest error, the fault lies in believing what these authorities pronounce as true, and simply waving away anything that disagrees. I know, because I have seen it done on my doorstep and right here. Study 'within the box' of faith is one thing, but refusing to listen to those who stepped outside is an error, whether or not the continued fingers in the ears and loud claims of being right, no matter what anyone says, can be called arrogance or just faith-based denial. Which is what I call it.

"Refusing to listen to those who stepped outside is an error." Ok, I get that. But it's a two way street. People overwhelming refuse to listen to those who haven't stepped outside. Even refuse to listen to those who stepped in from some other religion who remain JWs. Universally on threads like this if anyone who is a JW offers a different perspective people refuse to listen. Take the poster above. This poster knows my kids better than I know them even though I raised them! They must have led "boring lives", "I feel sorry for them"," they were outcasts", etc. But that's not arrogance? So, we have faith based denial? What would you say about the vitriol by some of these posters? No, there's just no way that JWs could have family lives that are anything but miserable. That's not arrogance? That's not living in denial? Maybe some of us don't pay attention to some (and please note "some') who have left because of the hate. Why on earth would people not readily listen to those who say you lie, you're mislead, you're in denial, you're way of life sucks and you're kids suffered. Yet we are arrogant? Really? I have a happy family life. I'm close to my kids and not all of them decided to be baptized. As young adults they are well adjusted. I post on this and other threads not for the benefit of the hate based crowd but for those who might come across these threads knowing there's always two sides to a story. However, I would agree with you that some are in denial. I call it hate based denial.