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Old 08-21-2019, 05:41 PM
Status: "Disney travel agent" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: The tiki tiki tiki tiki tiki room
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Faith is being certain of what we have not seen.
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
there is nothing supernatural about having an eternal soul.
it is natural. it is our nature.
an eternal soul temporarily inhabiting a physical body.


that is the very nature of human life on this planet.
Agree.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
there is nothing supernatural about having an eternal soul.
it is natural. it is our nature.
an eternal soul temporarily inhabiting a physical body.


that is the very nature of human life on this planet.
That's why I said "generally". Some people regard some of the trappings of religion -- an afterlife, for example -- as part of the natural world. I do not see any evidence for this and regard it as unsubstantiated assertion, whether or not it's claimed to be supernatural.

Removing the supernatural, at least, takes it out of the realm of the unsubstantiatABLE, at least in theoretical terms. If a "soul" or "spirit" are part of the natural world, then it should be possible to evidence them, and not merely assert them, or resort to personal subjective experience / testimony as "evidence".

But this thread is about religious faith, and I stand by my statement that religious faith most commonly is trading in the supernatural.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:36 PM
 
13,238 posts, read 13,789,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
That's why I said "generally". Some people regard some of the trappings of religion -- an afterlife, for example -- as part of the natural world. I do not see any evidence for this and regard it as unsubstantiated assertion, whether or not it's claimed to be supernatural.

Removing the supernatural, at least, takes it out of the realm of the unsubstantiatABLE, at least in theoretical terms. If a "soul" or "spirit" are part of the natural world, then it should be possible to evidence them, and not merely assert them, or resort to personal subjective experience / testimony as "evidence".

But this thread is about religious faith, and I stand by my statement that religious faith most commonly is trading in the supernatural
isn't your example of "trust that your wife won't murder you" based entirely on personal subjective experience?

and plenty of people have plenty of evidence to substantiate for themself the soul is quite natural.
it is not about evidence for others.
it is about evidence for ourselves.

and plenty of people have that.

you can't give evidence to anyone that you love your wife. you can't give evidence to anyone that your son loves you. its just your "testimony" as evidence, which can not be substantiated. by anyone but you. does that make it "trading in the supernatural"?

loving God and being loved by God is as natural to many people, as loving your wife is to you.
and they are substantiated in the very same way, which if i read your post correctly you dismiss as "unable to evidence them." your "trappings of marriage" include the "unsubstantiated assertion" that there exists love for your wife, that there exists love from your wife.

the simple truth is you know it because you feel it. you can evidence it to yourself. but you can't evidence to others.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-21-2019 at 07:54 PM..
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:08 PM
Status: "Vigilant." (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Faith is being certain of what we have not seen.
So is delusion.
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
isn't your example of "trust that your wife won't murder you" based entirely on personal subjective experience?

and plenty of people have plenty of evidence to substantiate for themself the soul is quite natural.
it is not about evidence for others.
it is about evidence for ourselves.

and plenty of people have that.

you can't give evidence to anyone that you love your wife. you can't give evidence to anyone that your son loves you. its just your "testimony" as evidence, which can not be substantiated. by anyone but you. does that make it "trading in the supernatural"?

loving God and being loved by God is as natural to many people, as loving your wife is to you.
and they are substantiated in the very same way, which if i read your post correctly you dismiss as "unable to evidence them." your "trappings of marriage" include the "unsubstantiated assertion" that there exists love for your wife, that there exists love from your wife.

the simple truth is you know it because you feel it. you can evidence it to yourself. but you can't evidence to others.
My wife exists and can be examined and her behavior assessed, not just by myself, but by others -- and I can compare those observations and experiences. I do not have the equivalent of blind religious faith that she is highly unlikely to murder me as I sleep. I have long experience with an actual flesh and blood person. I also have plenty of evidence that some humans kill other humans. None of this is mythology and none of it is difficult to separate from imagination or speculation.

Of course there's no such thing as 100% objective data, but there are some things concerning which far more objective data is available, than others. And if you have decent evidentiary standards, there are actually some things that there is no valid data concerning. About these things, we must be willing to say that we don't know.

I agree with you that you get to decide what you believe and what the basis for it is. And if you afford me the same privilege and don't promote things like public policy on some made-up basis, then I have no malfunction with you whatsoever. All I'm doing here is explaining myself, for what it's worth (or not).
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Despite being an atheist, I don't think there's much wrong with faith, except when one can't tell the difference between faith and fact.
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
My wife exists and can be examined and her behavior assessed, not just by myself, but by others -- and I can compare those observations and experiences. I do not have the equivalent of blind religious faith that she is highly unlikely to murder me as I sleep. I have long experience with an actual flesh and blood person. I also have plenty of evidence that some humans kill other humans. None of this is mythology and none of it is difficult to separate from imagination or speculation.

Of course there's no such thing as 100% objective data, but there are some things concerning which far more objective data is available, than others. And if you have decent evidentiary standards, there are actually some things that there is no valid data concerning. About these things, we must be willing to say that we don't know.

I agree with you that you get to decide what you believe and what the basis for it is. And if you afford me the same privilege and don't promote things like public policy on some made-up basis, then I have no malfunction with you whatsoever. All I'm doing here is explaining myself, for what it's worth (or not).
"My wife exists and can be examined and her behavior assessed, not just by myself, but by others -- and I can compare those observations and experiences."

and those who know the Creator exists can be examined and their behavior and relationship with the Creator assessed not just by their own self but by others. and those observations and experiences can be compared.

leading to many common elements such as: a single Creator; whose essence is compassion, love and benevolence; who responds to and participates in relationship, who knows us individually and cares deeply for our well-being, who yearns for closeness with us; who welcomes us and delights in our very presence; an eternal soul that came from the Creator and returns to Creator; connection with deceased loved ones and ancestors whose presence and guidance and love are palpable. those are some common elements. over long experience. shared compared and validated and experienced by many.

those are not blind. they are as you say shared, assessed, observed, experienced, compared, discovered. there is nothing blind about them at all. any more than you blindly love your wife. or that the love for your wife is mythology. you love her because you know her, and are known by her. you cultivate a relationship with her and as you find it to be positive, nourishing, valuable, you continue participating in that relationship and it becomes ever more deeply rewarding. nothing blind in that at all. or mythical.

same with Creator, same with our soul

you may not have this experience. but to disallow that others experience this,
is like someone saying to you your loving relationship with your wife is speculation and imagination.

it never ceases to amaze me the mindset that goes to the place of (not saying you do this mordant, this is my observation in general) "if i don't experience something, then no one else can either. and if they claim to experience something that I do not, then they are making it up, it is imaginary"

which is like someone saying they have a loving relationship with their wife, and someone else who has never had a loving relationship or perhaps never had a wife says "i have not experienced what you describe therefore what you claim is imaginary"

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-21-2019 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:52 PM
 
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"There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the school boy who said, Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
-Following the Equator, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,931 posts, read 12,399,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Faith is being certain of what we have not seen.
Faith doesn't just 'happen'...out of nowhere, do you think?

Wouldn't you say, as BapFun brought up...don't you feeeel, profoundly, it was a gift....because you probably
rem a time when you didn't have it, no? And now you are a completely different person!
Lighter, freer, happier, more trusting, more carefree...
And very grateful?

(Since we have started to talk about faith itself...)
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