Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The fundamental equation in any religion or belief system is faith in a god or higher power. My question is, who created god? We know that something can't exist from nothing, so where exactly did this "man in the sky" come from?
Despite being a very simple question, and one which I'm sure many of you have considered, I realize it's probably difficult for most believers to truly comprehend.
How did god come into existence?
Without reading what else has been in reply, what makes you think God was created?
Doesn't it seem impossible for there to be the existence of nothing?
Makes sense to me, that God could always have been.
Humanity created god. God is a belief rather than an actual entity. It's a belief because there's no evidence to support it. People created the god belief for a few reasons. The first is fear. When dangerous things like storms/natural disasters happened, people needed comfort or some such thing to alleviate their fear. The god concept helped to do this because it made people think an external entity was in control and would have mercy on them in such situations. A second reason is the god belief/afterlife helps to control people. A good example of this is the wrathful god of the bible. The belief that such a god will reward those who believe in/obey them while handing out a sadistic and vengeful punishment to those who don't believe in/don't obey said entity will make people follow the whatever they think their religion tells them to do. A third reason is that people often crave an explanation for the way things work. While it is a pseudo explanation, the belief explains away things that are currently unexplained. So, to answer your question, god is a creation of the human imagination.
Humanity created the concept that there is no god. That there is no god is a belief rather than an actual non-entity. It's a belief because there's no evidence to support it. People created the no-god belief for a few reasons. The first is fear that their asses will be reamed after death. When dangerous things like storms/natural disasters happen, people needed the comfort or some such thing to alleviate their fear that some being larger than them has wrath and punishes and crushes them, ages them, and lets them die. The no-god concept helped to do this because people think an external natural power is actually in control and would unemotionally, without any ethic or morality, and with absolutely no care for them, but with a pure blind force would just smear them all over the planet in such situations-this is a very comforting thought for many. The second reason is the no-god belief/with no afterlife helps to control people by the assumption, despite the wonders of nature's destruction and their ultimate end as rotting meat that liquefies in their coffins or perhaps being eaten by worms, a nature that they have no control over and in spite of this, that they control their little puny short meaningless existences that basically is so that the next generation, for no particular reason can be produced and repeat the meaningless process. A good example of this is the nitrogen cycle of their science text books. The belief that the natural law of a rotting human corpse that once thought it had control of its destiny is rewarded by breaking down and being consumed by little critters and then, well who knows, becoming an intestine in some rodent or perhaps some fertilizer for a dandelion. The belief that one will be broken down into some form of future fecal matter causes many to follow the no-god concept and they will do what ever their atheistic "groupie crowd" feels is the sound structure of a reality they know nothing in an absolute knowledge that traversed all of time and space for eons (but they are sure it is this way) or in a non-dialectical way. A third reason is that people often crave an explanation for the way things work. While it is a pseudo explanation, the nogod-belief explains away things that are currently unexplained, So, to answer a question on this topic dialectically, the no-god belief, like all beliefs, is a fabrication (only a god can create-from nothing you see) of the human mind.
I think I will comment on my comment. Let us assume that there is a god, after all this is about philosophy-or that was what I was led to assume (the problem with saying assume is we posit the existence of the other possibility; be that as it may). Let us assume that this god is as some think it is: ineffable (a big word, but not for philosophers, especially philosophers with an inquisitive mind about all nature of being; and isn't that what philosophy is all about?). Now, since this god would be beyond description, and the term g-o-d, as concept means just that (this means that even a bible, even one that tells the truth; that truth would be in words that could not capture the literal reality....ooops, I think I gave away a definition! But that is another issue), the god could not be captured in a mental structure, at least in a one to one correspondence; at least for those who think with words and sentences. Beyond description would mean, of course, that that god would be hidden (there is a great Latin phrase for this-Vader should have spoke Latin, that Lucas guy screwed that up) or not available to the mind (no words no thoughts-at least for being truly human; could we dare say, no words-no consciousness? but then that is another issue). If this were the case, and as philosophers with humility we are merely speculating here, then we as the human herd would have no conception of the "actual" or "real" god that we posited as existing "for itself" with its own existence apart from ours (we can not really apply the term "existence" to god as the term is for the changeable, so excuse my use of it here-I am merely speculating in philosophy and not in the system of theology). Now if the "real" god is hidden, we have absolutely no available knowledge-sort of like not knowing that city on that planet that is 70 light years from here. Well given this condition, then any god that we "know" must be the fabrication of our minds (we are assuming that the "real" god has decided to stay hidden). Now, let us assume that there is no "real" god; this is philosophy after all and not theology. Well this "no real god" is also hidden from the mind because it too is ineffable. The mind would have to "know" every nook and cranny of the entire physical world as well as the possibility of some other world not available to mind (and if it is not available it is not known)-it is assumed that gods and such are spirit beings and the determination of such a world would have to be positively known to be false. This no "real" god is also an unknown or a hidden as well (I am sure this could also be worked up into a neat Latin phrase). The mind then will also have to fabricate a "no-god" concept even if there was a no "real" god and that no "real" god would also be beyond a one to one correspondence or a match between the ideal and the "real" as the fabrication will have to be made in ignorance (but note, the real for the mind is not the real "real"-the whole thing takes place as a collision {to use a word from Kierkegaard} within the mind). The mind is like a loner that resides in, generally if one talks around the herd a bit, an attic of a slum not attended to by the landlord. The mind can look out onto the world outside through its dirty windows but its experiences are only through deliveries from the outside (usually with postage due), the mind does not get to go outside and blend with the "real" world; it must fabricate reality in its attic. And of course, in its attic, it experiences itself as well and must fabricate the meanings of all this mess. These fabrications are then structured in several ways which all have shortcomings, but that is another issue. The result is that both ideas are just that, ideas; because as humans that is all we have. so when one says, very definitely, there is no god, that one is being dogmatic, and when one says there is a god, that one is being dogmatic; sounds like a theological issue to me.
Ah, the great mystery. How did the first of anything come into existence? No matter what you believe, you believe that either A) something poofed into existence out of nothing with no cause all on it's own or B) something always existed as illogical as that sounds.
I look at it this way. In the rules of this universe, something always existing doesn't make sense but it could in another universe with different rules. I figure when this universe was created (or poofed, take your pick) the first thing that had to happen is the rules were written. This universe follows those rules. The rules of this universe say that things don't poof out of nothing for no reason (now it is entirely possible that all of the matter and anti matter in this universe adds up to nothing but the rules here say that something can't poof from nothing without something that preexisted the nothing causing it (call that God if you will)).
M theory (a physics theory for those not familiar) speculates that our universe was created when two other universes collided. Who knows but it does appear that something outside of this universe existed before this universe and had something to do with all of this happening.
No matter what you believe, you have to come to a point of accepting that something poofed from nothing, which only happens in this universe if something causes that, so something had to have been here before. You can't avoid it. I, personally, find it easier to believe that that something is a spirit being that isn't held to the rules of this universe. You can believe it was a rock if you like (as in a rock hitting class and all of this is the spider web cracks) but then where did the rock come from or where did God come from? You'll always end up asking where something came from. So pick the something you'll believe was always here because that's where you're going to end up.
When I look around me at the way things fit together, I believe it is God. I don't find God in the bible. I find him in science. In the laws that were laid down when this universe was made and at how the very existence of some of those things defies those laws. We'll never know all the answers but, personally, I believe the study of science is the study of God's laws for this universe. I love it. When I see a honey bee pollinate a flower, I think to myself, did God tell the flower there would be a bee first or did he tell the bee there'd be a flower? That two things, codependent for survival, just happened to evolve at the same time to need each other is just mindboggling.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts..
Thanks for sharing them..
peace,
sparrow
Some say there is no evidence to support a God...but they overlook the obvious, that is right before their own eyes....or denie it blindly because of lies.
Life is not a simple thing...it employs many precepts, ideals, states of being, and in some regard unions of not only other life doing service, but elelements coming together to make it possible for us to be alive in a reality of some design!
All these things don't just happen...they are of some design!
Now if One person sees God, and they were not drugged or on any medication what so ever, is not insane or mentally challanged, and not a sleep or unconscious when seen...and the story told is that persons truth....then he has proof of God.
"The Pure of heart shall see God"
And it also says He will come as a thief in the night....
Now I feel it prudent to say that these events have come to pass with me.
So I say, and always will say, that God is real...or there is a Satan...and or both!
because I can see Evil in the world...I know the opposite exists to that.
Because I have seen something extrodinary and out of this worldly...paranormal!!
I can say I have a Bible that explains some of what I have seen!
Thus I believe the Bible is closer than the other books to the truth I have experienced.
Now I would not, or could not, tell lies about the truth...cause the truth is always true.
If what I saw was God...Then God is a body of Dark matter of some kind....if that was God I saw.
According to scripture he did come as a thief in the night...(could be a trick of Satan coming in the form of the spirit of light)
So it is in good standing with what is written.
If it was Satan...then the opposite must exist!
And in that I prove God by way of opposites.
For every action, there is a equal and adverse reaction...there are opposites in my reality!
Now one is a Entity of Love, and respect for all life...and the opposite is a entity of destruction and hate and selfishness.
Although God does hate some things...he does try to forgive them if they conform to his will and word...and stop doing the abominable things...
But as we know Satan is out to defile the innocent, defile the house of God, and turn everyone away from the truth...to believe in lies, and half truths...under a Idol told by God not to have.
The Earth is becoming polluted, radiated, and intoxified by the stupidity of their bent folly for dollars sake...and it is costing more and more to live in this system that doesn't work...and we are seeing signs of its demise right now, and the corruption that is in it....while they keep on telling us lies that we are free!,,,and that we have to defend that freedom by way of humansacrifices!
Yes Wars...and the underhanded deals, and commitments made, so that these events take place!
All done behind closed doors, and done without the peoples vote!
And so we have top secret...and foreign policy..oppression of trade, and sactions which only enrage the people under them...and that is how terrorists are born!
So the system makes the enemy mime...and that is the fruit of the system...and they continue to make even more poor and suffering...so more sickness comes about...so more medicines are needed, and because of sin in the system, more woe and wrath come down, so more get sick and die costing more and more to solve for...but never really address the problem, because it makes them more profits and gains to leave it the way it is.....and to some this is a way to make profits!
Yes profits made off of the stupidity of being in sin, makes for a very expensive system to live in, under that Idol...hospitals are not really helping make the earth any more friendly towards us.
The problems of sickness in the enviroments still needs to be addressed!
That would solve the problems of sickness for Good.
But in this event...SIN...we beget death...and so sickness is in part part of something (Wrath and Woe) to curb certain behavior!
That this Bible speaks of behavior and what is good and bad or evil is to my mind half the battle written down of the word on what should be done!.
If we conform to the Bibles ways, and precepts...and start taking care of the planet, instead of sucking it dry...maybe that conceptual truth would start showing some fruits?
Well if we do not try we will never know...EDEN is the best place for all life.
Edens would be the multiple of Eden...and this can be shared...like God shares with us...and it can expand to new worlds!
So to say the Bible is just a bunch of lies or stories is not correct.
If there is a God...and I know there is one...he is waitting for us to show that we are conformed enough to be trusted in his estates....that we would not trespass on anything he has made clean or sound...and has a covenant with!!!
And taking care of this world in the right way would show signs of our readiness!
Edens would abound..and evil and war would end...sin would be under control of the self conforming to the truth...and making Edens all over the Earth...climatizing it, and sowing more food into it....following the laws of the land ..and having abundantly so we feed not only ourselves, but all life God wants taken care of.
Now when we start doing that...then we are close to being God's children....and not of our own selfishness...for God has asked us to tend and keep the garden with all plants as givens, and all life in toe, well cared for!
Thus there should not be any prohibition on any plants...they are all Good when taken with thanksgiving, and sown in a sinless way to restore things to the way they have to be!
That is what I'm saying...it has to be Edens..and share in that the true life God wants us to make or have...and when we do this and start helping in the garden sinlessly...that is when God finds his Gold...Putting back sinlessly what was taken in disobediance, should reverse the Curse of death...Adam and Eve created with their disobediance, and taking of the plant told not to touch.
Jesus says we are forgiven..or to "do no more sin and be forgiven"....makes more sense now that I think about it...
So that Estate is what is best for all life and humankind...EDENS are > than me, and I am < than God > than everything...would be a true expression from my observation.
A poem does not make it true
A thought merely comes from within you
For humans, authority is a must
But the words of the herd pass like dust
What one sees with one's eyes
Can be reinterpreted by other guys
As amazing as the cosmos seems
How it all got there can be assumed in other dreams
This god or that god made it all
Which one or none at all?
If there is a god what is its name?
Nature neglected to give us the same
Did it all evolve or was there a big bang?
Men's theories have all been sang
People always assert they know the truth
And the history of the herd reveals this ruse
Kierkegaard wrote that all poets lie and about they creep
Aesthetics are for the mind that sleeps
A sappy little ode can draw one in
But as Nietzsche would say, a thought thinks its way out again
Humanity created the concept that there is no god.
Actually, I suspect it was the action of a CLEAR mind, to disbelieve the religious bull and the unfounded claim that there actually exists, this mythological god. Furthermore, I suspect that the whole "god" idea came about after man had improved his brain enought to start creating make-believe. It was a quick, but erroneous, answer to the age old question about where things originate. This question was answered wrongly for a very long time, until Saint Charles of Darwin finally came up with a rational theory. About six months ago I finished reading "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory" by Saint Stephen J. Gould. An excellent, if not longwinded,(over 1300 pages of a carefully documented history) fully footnoted account of how the theory evolved.
Last edited by Dusty Rhodes; 02-10-2010 at 01:27 PM..
Clear minds work it all, if one gets away from the biases-admittedly that is hard to do especially further out on the edges of the herd (read Barths Dogmatics or Hegel, just for the reasoning-both posit god, the trinity, etc, and who would say Hegel wasn't clear headed; wrong maybe, and as a matter of fact, evolution was looked down upon by Hegel and other philosophers of the time because evolution was actually a process that was performed outside of the mind rather than being a process strictly rational within the mind {that was real science then}-my have things changed). I have no doubt that evolution, atheism (in some reasonable form rather than the ubiquitous unreflected position), mysticism, playboy philosophy, etc, are all constructed rationally and carefully. But, all of these systems have holes as reason can not be isolated to the advantage of one thought category-it works everywhere and with all categories as that is how it all is put together. If there is no absolute proof of an absolute, yes or no, then one has to make up both positions, and clear minds can do both-if a position corresponds to reality it is by accident and will need something besides the belief, to make it an absolute truth-the object of belief has to be out there and Kant pretty much shuts us off to that without it just showing up or not. The cosmos is a large place and the "not showing up" could take the entire span of the herd (as well as the showing up). When one behaves like one has that absolute certainty without possessing that absolute knowledge one is resting on one's opinion and drifting into religion-this is fine by the way, because that is all one gets nowadays-I have spent a lot of time trying to find a method to get at the truth but all one finds is the method of belief-how does one leave the brain? When one uses a phrase like "religious bull" one can also use a phrase like "scientific bull", "political bull", "atheistic bull", "mystical bull", "commie bull"-on and on, after all, the science of origins have changed and will continue to do so-or does one suspect that a thousand years from now, men will still think that what passes for truth today will still be accepted in science? At one time knowledge moved slowly and one could comfortably accept the prevailing social gossip (truth) as the truth one's entire life and die thinking that what he knew was the sum of it all, that is becoming a thing of the past as instruments become sharper and knowledge grows. All systems are constructed to give some sense of the truth of the assertion, otherwise it wouldn't be believed, so there is a built in bias to its construction, that is fine as reason needs a first step. That bias is either an assertion that is thought to be true or needs no underpinning-no god, for example, and it is clear as the nose on one's face, then the clear head can fabricate rationally from that start or it can begin with a cluster of assertions, no god,the universe is radom, not designed and then begin; what distinguishes the clear head from us dolts is the construction technique and coherence of the structure-the better this is, the more believable, but the clear head does not have the corner on truth (that is why the post modern gave up on truth). You get what you started with-sorta like looking for your keys, you stop when you find them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
