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Old 06-25-2008, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,579,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
Thank you for your opinion, but that is not how my Analytical Greek Lexicon reads.
I actually wasnt voicing my opinion. The Greek Lexicon you are reading is obviously taking into account the fact that The Church assigned new meaning to those terms when the Trinity doctrine was established. Again, you'll have to research the history of this teaching. 'Godhead' in its original form-that of a triune God- was conceived by The Church.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:38 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 8,550,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I actually wasnt voicing my opinion. The Greek Lexicon you are reading is obviously taking into account the fact that The Church assigned new meaning to those terms when the Trinity doctrine was established. Again, you'll have to research the history of this teaching. 'Godhead' in its original form-that of a triune God- was conceived by The Church.

Which "Church" are you saying changed the meaning ? and is your meaning from a JW book ?
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,579,660 times
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The Roman Church...and in answer to your second question-NO. I get my history from Encyclopedias and other Reference works, the same as most other people. I am a JW because I believe the way I do -not the other way around.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:56 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 8,550,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
The Roman Church...and in answer to your second question-NO. I get my history from Encyclopedias and other Reference works, the same as most other people. I am a JW because I believe the way I do -not the other way around.

The Roman Catholic Church did not write the lexicon that I use, or the Bible that I use.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
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No, but they did create the trinity doctrine. The Lexicon you are using is the same one I use, by the way.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:01 AM
 
Location: PA
2,595 posts, read 4,440,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Did you read the OP? Elohyim is plural in hebrew as opposed to Elohim which is singular.

Some interpretations have already been suggested:

1-Talk of the trinity
2-God is so big she is referred to in plural

As well as possibles:

3-Queen Elizabeth complex(we are not amused)
4-Yahweh started as part of a pantheon later becoming the dominant one.

Of course since my statement was specific to Judaism then 1 is immediately crossed out.

Now lets start with the definition of henotheism:
That is to say that my position is that the Jews saw god as one in a pamtheon, they acknoledged the existance of other gods but saw Yahweh as their god. This gradually changed to god being the only one that should be worshiped and eventually the belief turned into seeing her as the only real god.

There is also a big theme of gods ruling certain lands(ie the god of Israel) even in kings there seems to be some acknowledgment of Baal as a god albeit as one with no power over god

To further this riddle we get:



and lastly the second commandment:



There are no rights or wrongs here, just differing interpretations.
Theere are rights and wrongs! All scripture is given for doctrine (see timothy). So if there is no right or wrong then there is no basis for a correct doctrine.

Right and wrong indicate laws, laws are given by a law giver, the ultimate law giver is God. So, since God gave us laws there is right and wrong. Don't eat the fruit of the knowlege of good and evil. Do, love the Lord your God with all you heart, soul and being and love your neighbour as yourself.

We interpret in a limited sense until God reveals through scriptures what is the correct doctrine. There is also aproved of methods for interpretation, so it is not random, but systematic and thourough.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:03 AM
 
Location: PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yydanay515 View Post
Think hard on the one highlighted word up there.
Yes God is the God of Israel! What is your point?
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:45 AM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 568,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Yes God is the God of Israel! What is your point?
Do you see it?
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:21 PM
 
2,630 posts, read 4,940,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Theere are rights and wrongs!
Probably but how do you know which interpretation is right and which one is wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
All scripture is given for doctrine (see timothy). So if there is no right or wrong then there is no basis for a correct doctrine.
Sorry but there isn't, all doctrine comes from interpreting the scripture. Catholics will argue against protestants, Mormons will disagree with JW and nontrinitarians wont believe exactly as you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Right and wrong indicate laws, laws are given by a law giver, the ultimate law giver is God. So, since God gave us laws there is right and wrong. Don't eat the fruit of the knowlege of good and evil. Do, love the Lord your God with all you heart, soul and being and love your neighbour as yourself.
You are moving away from the point, interpretation of scripture in the bible can neither be said to be right or wrong. They have their scriptures to back up their beliefs and so do you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
We interpret in a limited sense until God reveals through scriptures what is the correct doctrine.
So you agree with me then that we don't know which interpretation is right and thus can't say which group is right or wrong then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
There is also aproved of methods for interpretation, so it is not random, but systematic and thourough.
Thankfully the authority when it comes to the bible is presumably god and not whoever declares himself right above all others.

In any case you have not argued against my points at all, all you did was claim I was wrong. I posted the passages and I explained why the wording seems to lead to henotheism so could you kindly comment on that?
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:27 PM
 
Location: South Florida
553 posts, read 568,485 times
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I posted this in another thread in times past. I thought the thread was gone, but I actually see it now and perhaps it should be merged with this one over on THIS forum or simply moved to this forum and be parallel to this one. Anyway, this was what I posted and while it was about a different passage of scripture, I think it sheds light on this subject. The other thread can be found HERE
================================================== =====

The oldest Hebrew only bible the world knew of for centuries was the Masoretic Text (MT). It was put together around the latter 10th into the early 11th century. A Jewish scribal sect known as the Masorets put it together. By this time in Jewish history, the idea of monotheism had taken deep roots. Jews were fierce monotheists believing in one God who they believed to be the god of the entire universe while all others were non-existent. It was this canon of scriptures the King James Version used as its source over 500 years later, the same King James Version many people read today.

Well, as we know, in the 1940s, the world became acquainted with the Dead Sea Scrolls after their discovery. These scrolls were over 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text which means the Masoretic Text had to give seniority to these scrolls.

In the King James Version's reading of Deuteronomy 32:8 and 9 based on its source, the Masoretic Text, we read:

When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations,
When He separated the sons of Adam,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the children of Israel.
For the LORD’s portion is His people;
Jacob is the place of His inheritance.



Now when we compare the same passage to the OLDER Dead Sea Scrolls, we read this via the Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible:


When the Most High [El Elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance. (brackets mine for clarification)

There is a world of difference between the two passages because of the portions I highlighted. Someone changed the wording. It appears it was intentional for obvious reasons since the former (The Dead Sea Scrolls) reading gives the impression the nations were divided amongst gods something later Jews living in the 10th century A.D would NOT believe.

"Sons of God" and "Children of Israel" do NOT mean the same thing in this context. The idea that any human or group of humans were "sons of God" was a much later concept/belief. Furthermore, the passage in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 referred to the dividing of the nations in Genesis 10 and 11 and Israel was NOT one of the nations nor would it be a nation for at least over a thousand years later. How did the "Most High" divide the nations by a people (children of Israel) who were not yet in existence?

Furthermore, the idea that "Sons of God" referred to other gods/divinities was consistent in the entire region. The belief was that El/Anu (the supreme god) had 70 sons and to these sons were the nations granted to. Interestingly enough, according to the book of Genesis, there were a total of 70 nations that resulted in the division. Coincidence? 70 gods (sons of God), 70 nations.

Now why would Jews, sitting to write out and edit their ancient scriptures want to hide this fact by apparently deliberately changing the words "sons of God" to "children of Israel?" Ok, there is the possibility, based on later theology, that they thought sons of God simply meant God's people, Israel, but I don't think so because other passages are clear that "Sons of God" meant actual physical children of God or at best "Angels of God" (Jews by the time of the Babylonians hid the obvious by considering these "sons" as angels and not actual other gods to preserve the idea that there was only ONE God). They had to have known the passage was literal and thousands upon thousands of years later, the Jews as a people, had long past the stage of their earliest ancestors who actually believed other gods, responsible for other nations, actually existed. To maintain such an understanding was to undermine the singularity of God much in the same way Jews then or now CANNOT accept the notion that Jesus Christ was THE son of God or even equal with God. The change of wording then gave an entirely new meaning to the passage despite the inconsistency in logic it creates.

There is yet another reason why they would have wanted to change the wording. The Dead Sea Scrolls passage, when read correctly and carefully, also indicates that "The LORD" (translated as YHW or Yahweh) was actually a son of God (El Elyon or "The Most High") himself and he inherited or was allotted (inherited) Jacob (Israel). Yahweh is clearly a distinctively different character from the Most High and consistent with Jews of the Babylonian era over a thousand years earlier, there was an attempt to make it appear that Israel's god, Yahweh, was always one in the same with the Most High God.

There is one other thing that may shed some light on this. In 1928, a group of French archaeologists traveled to the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit located in modern day Syria. They set their sights upon a tel (mound) known as Ras Shamra. In time they discovered tablets dating back to the time the Israelites emerged/arrived in the area. At this point Ugarit was at its peak. The tablets were written in a Semitic language very close to that of Hebrew. Their discovery helped biblical scholars to gain better interpretations and understandings of certain Old Testament passages.

One of these tablets, however, provided something interesting, shocking to some. Text KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:

sm . bny . yw . ilt



Translated it says:


“The name of the son of god, Yahweh.”


Note the word "bny" compared to the Hebrew word "ben" which means "son."



Here in Ugarit, the god known as Yahweh was indeed known, but not as the supreme god of the universe and not even the top god in the regional pantheon of gods. Here he is clearly just another god, in fact, a son of the supreme god. This places Moses' words squarely within context and keeps the consistent with the regional beliefs of the day.

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