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Hi again everyone and welcome @S_C Still_Chealaing -
I was pondering whether to post publically for the past few days, or reply only by DM, as there were a few Q's from @Violett11 from the beginning of the year that I left hanging. On the balance, I've decided to reply in public:
Reading the latest interchanges between @Still_Kicking and @Still_Chealaing, I've realized what a "wall" there is between those who "are called and follow" (those who "have drunk the Kool-Aid" in some people's opinion, granted) and those who hear the call here, or elsewhere, or have heard the call before, and choose not to follow, or have followed and walked away because of their experiences.
The recent massive loss of life in Haiti has again got me wondering about free-will: in 4 words: how free are we? ...and in the context of this thread, is there anything we can really do to shift the position of "the wall", or, if we decide to take a stance or side, on which side of the wall we fall, and whether anything we say will affect in any way, the decision of truth-seekers trying to size up what life as a chela of gary olsen is all about.
To respond to @Still_Kicking's comment addressed to me (PM21), yes I am "betting the farm" (my entire life - and future lives - if reincarnation is true) and that is a big ask - huge - to literally entrust the Destiny of one's Soul to another being - Gary Olsen (and his inner forms) in the provisional faith that he is really who he claims to be. A seeker who attended a weekend of MP seminars with me once commented that what concerned her more than even her fear of being exploited in a physical way by a pseduo-guru e.g. financially etc - was the psychic danger involved, say, if a guru did have a real ability to manifest within one's third eye, in an inner form of glittering stars etc, how could/would the seeker know he/she was really dealing with the incarnation of Anami Purush and not an impersonator or "well-intentioned but deluded psychic-entity"?
So yes, I can see it seems a risky proposition to trust any soul (outside of oneself) claiming "divine appointment"...and to stake at best, a big investment of time, energy and effort in this life...and at worst: all kinds of "complications upstairs" (i.e. in the after-life), if chelas of any supposed satguru ultimately end up backing "the wrong horse" - but in an infinite universe, there are only infinite learning-experiences, so is any horse really "the wrong horse"...?
I agree that there are many elements of light and sound teachings that go way beyond what our minds' reason and logic would consider "reasonable" but all I can say really after 14 years, is that i continue to "follow the love" and "the sound of the ring of truth" in a provisional manner through a deepening sense of inner-trust and confidence that I truly am dealing with
1: An individual who is a 100% manifestation of the sound current ("the shabda")
rather than
2: A manifestation of a part-mixture of shabda ("the word") and universal mind energy ("the kal"), such as an avatar or incarnation from a given chakra...and every other humanoid in the entire universe that is currently not (claiming to be) "the word made flesh".
This is my take-away of what @Richard. meant by
Quote:
it takes one to know one, and as I'm not one...
i.e. we cannot know if a self-declared / "appointed on the inner" sat guru is really who he says he is or not, until we reach that level of god-realization ourselves ...but on the way to that point, i walk in a state of provisional faith - based on, yes call them "warm-fuzzies" such as a sense of subtlety in the details of the MP Works - like the hundreds of letters - published in books available to all chelas and several personal responses I have received over the years (if sri gary didn't write these, then who did?) or the hundreds of lectures given by sri gary on stage.
(btw small note to an earlier comment by @Violet11: I don't think the "Original" Teachings of the Saints mean "Original" as in originated by Sri Gary, rather: original as in "since the antiquity of time" i.e. not new-age but an ancient form of spiritual exercise: surat shabda yoga)
Having read a few of the Sant-Mat (which in Sanskrit translates as "The Way of the Saints" or the "Path of the Masters") books and found them to be identical in essence to the works of MP doesn't concern me any more than I would be at finding two science books to be talking about basically the same laws of physics: MP is after all a (subtle, intuitive) science of spirituality (based in provisional faith that "the Truth is out there").
I agree that the circular-logic aspects of some of the MP works confound the mind on many an occassion and can even be irritating in their certitude and seeming smugness (but in fairness, I do recall a distinction made in Dennis Holtje's book "From Light to Sound" paraphrased: "humility is not the same as modesty - a sat guru is humble but not modest" - so a satguru declaring themselves as "sat" is not necessarily an act of narcissism or supreme vanity).
If the principles themselves as propounded in MP turned out to be false, I would raise my hand and say, "yup, this was one hell of a sophisticated scam and I was duped"...but really, I do my best to keep an open mind, and so far, I don't feel disappointed or betrayed by any of what I have read on this thread or elsewhere - and I trust that even the seemingly negative things reported - such as beratings and insults, financial behaviour, and even the sad case of the murder of Doug by Francisco will come to make sense from the bigger picture - I don't see this as rationalization or denial, but a genuine desire for the truth and the Truth.
Some more links I've trawled up from the internet to follow, and I will catch up on any other points that I have not properly addressed yet.
cheers
- TOM - The Optimystik Mysfitt - fka PM21
Last edited by PeaceMaker21; 01-14-2010 at 11:21 AM..
Reason: typos / clarity / expanded comment on humilty vs modesty
If Sri Garu is the real deal, I'm cool
If Gary is just a man, not sure what Ive lost or put at risk
I guess if SGO is some weird mix of non Human but harmful entity, I guess there is some risk to my soul, non human aspects, but how to quantify that is hard.
Any help?
Is that what Still_Kicking meant by circular logic, the fact that some of the teachings don't sound true? I question that because what I've read so far makes it seem that he is making much broader generalizations about not just MP but things like MP, spiritual paths etc.
And it doesn't seem he really means circular logic, not as I understand that term, but sorta dead ended. Where the 'proof' of one thing is a metaphysical statement that cant be 'proven' - not by empirical or logical means.
Of course this is an issue with anything metaphysical. The injunction for spiritual knowledge is to to the practice, go inside, have the internal experience. And by definition it cant be known by empirical or logic/deduction, etc.
Which leaves me in a blank as to how this natural 'limitation' of all things spiritual gets projected by Still_Kicking (as example) as some devious plot to confuse and mislead?
Anyway, any insights would be appreciated.
Also, one more thing.
It seems the idea of infallibility keeps on coming up. For me, as least what I know to date:
I don't agree with the premise that Gary the man is infallible. I'm sure his step kids and wife find some faults. I mean I don't agree thats the teaching as I understand it. Ive never heard Gary say he the man is infallible and in fact hear him saying just the opposite, self deprecating at times, as well as making the point that he to is on a path.
I don't know if Sri Gary is infallible either. Certainly he has experimented with many things in MP, organization, methods of teaching, and has made mistakes such as the off topic Bird Flu thing. When it comes to articulation of MP doctrine, well I guess there some assertion of being correct there but I honestly don't remember what he has specifically said. I think the model is that when he is speaking of MP 'doctrine', the metaphysics, etc he is correct, has to be. But I do know I shudder when he uses science and physics to explain or illustrate a point and I feel sometimes he is not totally correct.
I do know that the inner master is infallible, or thats what is taught. To the extent anything said by Gary is informed by the inner master, then it would have to correct was well.
Do you have more specific views on the subject of infallibility between these three entities/aspects?
Well Still Cheaaling, for as much as you have written and by your own admission you simply jumped in BEFORE reading the entire thread, means you are operating from assumptions. Sorry but far too many for me to able to correct without having to go on, and on, and on.....
If you think I will be convinced by your pronouncements, and arguments, and spin doctoring that you accuse me of, well whatever, I know for myself that I had to come to that conclusion about the MP, after a great deal of reading, analysis and thinking about it. Why do I use the word spin doctoring, for example, you create far too many arguments from non-arguments. This is spinning up arguments that don't exist.
For instance the religion definition issue, you asked for one, I gave you one, but you weren't happy with that, because you had to go off about atheists, a completely unrelated topic. Look he's selling a belief system, you pay for that with your monthly dues & when you get a discourse, and then you choose to buy into that belief system, that's what a religion is, a belief system, that's all. Can you simply accept that without going off on a tangent?
For me at least I have achieved my understanding through drawing my own conclusions from my experience, not by someone proselytizing to me.
Quite frankly you sound very similar to Allan who was on this thread early on, so for the record, "you doth protest too much". Very offensive / defensive stance you take here, the tone is clear, which to me at least indicates that you are trying to convince yourself that you've made the right decision to be on the MP and following Gary Olsen. No offense but from what I can tell so far, you like to argue, this does not bespeak the stance of a detached chela.
Anyone who has to write this much stuff to defend his chosen spiritual path and leader of that path, well he's trying to convince himself, he doesn't really believe in his path. This much writing, justifying, and arguing minutiae speaks to it directly, whether or not you can see it is another matter altogether.
To prove my point lets look at your fellow chela, Peacemaker21, who is dealing with this same topic in a completely different manner, raises his concerns without the need to attack or defend, but from a stance of seeking to understand. He realizes that there were many sincere people who were on the MP, and they left for good reasons, and he has legitimately sought to understand why, as there have been issues that have been raised that have challenged his involvement. After 14 years he continues to maintain provisional faith. You don't see anyone tearing into him do you?
Know this much: When you see conflict, you are not the master, nor are you with the master. You then become your own ego defending your "Rite to be Right".
I have at times seen circular logic used by Gary and other higher initiates that concludes where it started, meaning you have to accept a purported belief of the MP teachings in order for the argument as a whole to be true. But the stated assumption in the beginning is where you come back to. Circular Reasoning definition.
As far as generalizations about cults and the masterpath, I suggest that you check out the videos Cult 201 on Youtube that go into what is a cult and how it behaves. In my experience on the MP I saw much of what is mentioned on those videos was also happening on the MP, each person sees different things given one's exposure. I also had a list from ReFocus, a cult awareness website, in a previous post I originally stated I saw about 70%, later revised to >90% of what constituted a cult was also true for what I saw on the MP.
Either you see this stuff or you don't, your call totally.
Last edited by Still_Kicking; 01-14-2010 at 12:09 PM..
Reason: Additions and clarifications
His name isn't "Tom." It's an acronym: "now known as TOM."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Chealaing
Violet, do you appreciate that there might be subtleties to the teachings that you don't get? Would it matter or would you see these 'subtleties' as just some evasion or double speak by a chela?
...do you appreciate that there are subtleties in this thread that "you don't get..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Kicking
Quite frankly you sound very similar to Allan ...
Either you see this stuff or you don't, your call totally.
yep... same mind, different moniker
Last edited by end_of_faith; 01-15-2010 at 11:12 AM..
In fact, aren’t you in some, indirectly of course, by weakening and attacking the faith and belief of the Chela’s robbing or weakening of this process? If its my own faith and belief that is important, where does that put you who are attempting to weaken my faith and belief?
No, actually I'm not. If anything, your faith and belief has strengthened through this thread, just by your intense desire to defend what you believe is true.
isn't your faith (belief) becoming so great that it cannot be shaken or weakened...haven't you learned yet that "no one has the power to affect you unless you consent"....
You don't have the love, power, or wisdom to weaken (or strengthen) what I believe or know in the depths of my own being... so, don't label me with "robbing you or other chelas of this process..."
Here are a few things that I know about the Light and Sound Teachings according to MP based on my time on the “path”.
1. “No one knows their own soul.” Direct quote Gary (2008).
2. You must know a true Guru in order to know God. Because it is the Guru that introduces you to God. (a paraphrased quote Gary 2008)
3. You must have a true guru with the true teachings to initiate you into the true sound. Without a true guru, it is only a “light path of information”
4. You cannot walk the path alone. The master is your guide, the outer leads to inner.
5. You cannot travel the inner path through an ascended master.
6. Never leave your master, once initiated you stay with your master.
7. Before receiving 2nd initiation you must be free of drugs/alcohol.
Here are some questions:
If you follow your (Gary) ‘master’s reasoning, instructions, and directions’ why did you leave your previous master and path?
If you were not following a “true living master”, how can you say that you were a practitioner of Surat Shabd Yoga? According to your MP L&S Teachings, that is not possible. If you were following a pseudo guru, then, how can you say that the teachings you studied were true?
The only other possibility is that you were following someone that you considered a true guru…in which case, please share the name. It’s so slick how your current master Gary drops a “one-liner” in a seminar, but never directly answers it, or tells his audience who the 1 or 2 other gurus on the planet are…why do you think that is? I think it’s because it is all …hmm, coughing up bull****.
If you were following a true guru/philosophy/teaching, why would you leave it to join MP?
Does your current "master" (Gary) credit you with the consciousness experienced through your previous practice? Seems that after 25 years of practice, you would certainly know, or at least have an inkling of your own soul by now. Or, did you abandon and discard all previous knowledge in order to surrender to your current master?
Do you consider smoking marijuana to be ‘drug-free?’
Technically, the practice of Surat Shabd Yoga involves subtle contemplation or meditation. On MP (as of 2008) your master was still talking about the “Reading Contemplation” and Finishing the Course of Simran which involves Guru Bhakti (devotion to and following the outer Master’s direction and instruction). He used the example of a 7th initiate, and how that person would not be ready for subtle contemplation (or Sat Guru Bhakti) until the 8th.
9 years on MP would likely place you right around the 5th or 6th initiation, unless you are one of his special exceptions. So, I guess you are right that you are not in a position to say one way or another since subtle contemplation is not recommended until much farther down the road. That is of course if you believe what your master says is true about initiations, which obviously I don’t.
Here’s another tidbit for your consideration. Your master says “check out the MP” …well, in order for a seeker to check it out, they pretty much have to become a dues paying member. A seeker is allowed to attend ONE FREE Seeker Meeting with your Master. Oh sure, they can read or listen to the scant selection of “Seeker” materials available, but it’s nothing like Radha where you can send off for their entire library for a pittance of what it costs to buy MP materials. I figured what I spent on ONE MP Volume 1 (6 to 8 versions of it) was ½ the money spent on the entire library of Radha’s hardcover books.
Of course, your master also tells “seekers” that MP is the most expedient journey…beginning at the 3rd eye, and within a couple years they’ll be experiencing it too… yadda, yadda. Of course, by then they are so hoodwinked that they forget what they were told when they began the MP…the proverbial carrot dangling.
So, I’m just curious how your 25 years as a practitioner of “Surat Shabd Yoga” stacks up on MP, besides the difference in vows between Radha and MP/Eckankar.
Well, I guess before you can answer that question we should know the path/s you followed before joining MP. It appears that being a “Sat Guru” is a profitable business venture in the West, and if you google “sat guru” there appears to be a quite a few to choose from! Some even have icons for donations that are tax-free!
Or, the more subtle and sophisticated approach is they just include a yearly reminder in a newsletter/bulletin board that donations are tax-deductible. Same game, different players.
The descriptor of the as to put 'Gary first, Gary above all, is so off the mark that its either indicative of a real misunderstanding by those that use it, or a purposed intent to spin things as negatively as possible
No spin or misunderstanding. As of 2008 the focus of attention on MP is being directed to "Finishing the Course of Simran" which deals directly with Guru Bhakti, which roughly translated on MP means "following the instructions of your Outer Master: seminars, books, discourses, etc."
Now, if you are hearing and seeing more than the words Gary speaks, you are being guided in your thinking/reasoning process, and it is easy to SEE the circular logic.
Still_Kicking offered a stellar articulation of it, but I doubt that you are willing to pause in your assumed "inner connection" to the "source of all truth" to actually recognize the "truth" or "awareness" in those words.
I would also say the same the regarding Violet11, or any other poster on this thread. You assume that a person does not understand "the subtleties of MP teachings" because they are not a "chela of MP." If you are so attuned and connected to the "absolute truth of all truths" (whatever that means), and you are so keenly aware in your "soul perception" that we are all trapped/ensnared in a lower relative level of truth from what you are gleaning through MP ... are you also able to see the subtle arrogance in that viewpoint?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Chealaing
EOF, what do you find wrong about the above quote? I mean I find it to be true, I agree with the sentiment and meaning of it, I tried to explain my context above. You cast it as some rambling of a megalomaniac. Can you explain where my interpretation is gone astray?
I did not cast it as some rambling of a megalomaniac. But if the shoe fits... It's not my job to explain where your interpretation has gone astray. Isn't that your homework? Why are you focusing your attention on me? There are many posters who have offered very penetrating questions in the simplest and most profound verbiage. Why don't you take the time to thoughtfully answer those questions. Do you know the answers?
As far as my inner experiences...what about yours? Have you had any? Want to share them? In detail please.
You are making the positive assertion that you are following a guru, then why can't you prove it? Also, regarding your faith and belief...remember your own words: it's your faith and belief that you are investing. I'm sorry if your faith and belief has been weakened by the truth of people who have left MP. We have zero faith or belief in your guru, his 'teachings, or his 'path.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Chealaing
Note that the context of the question wasn't about day to day or even normal circumstances. The context was your about to die. If I was about to die, preparing for what comes after death would become very important to me. If I was a Christian or had such leanings I would spend more time making sure I was square with Jesus then comforting my wife. Anyway I just don't get where your negative spin on this question/answer comes in.
First, I do not fear death. Second, I guess the negative spin comes from how you view it. I think your response about Christians is a perfect example of the ideology of MP's "master first" philosophy. For me, the above statement defines the selfish attitude of a self-absorbed "spiritualist."
So, regardless of "religious/spiritual affiliation", the people that I love would be very present in my thoughts, and it would be a natural act to express love, concern, support, awareness, and understanding of their experience.
and oh, I would hope that your "spirituality" would find expression in your "essence" in those final moments, and that you could look in your wife's eyes and offer her far more than mere comfort..... but that's just me.
Last edited by end_of_faith; 01-16-2010 at 12:38 PM..
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it takes one to know one debate
