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That is part of the proper division of scripture . . . the OT was precisely for that purpose to prophesy about Christ and provide the validations that would identify Him . . . NOT to retain the ignorant superstitious beliefs about God of our primitive ancestors (the veil of ignorance over the OT). Jesus came to lift that veil and reveal the True Nature of God knowing it would not be well-received and not believed because they expected a wrathful smiting God of vengeance. He was not disappointed . . . they scourged and crucified Him and He endured it with the love and forgiveness only God could possess. This was the most UNAMBIGUOUS demonstration of God's true nature possible . . . He smote no one.
But leave it to our ignorant savage ancestors to misinterpret it in the only way they could given their superstitious and savage beliefs about God and the need for blood sacrifices to Him to avoid His wrath! However, that in itself is understandable for that era. What is disturbing . . . is the acceptance and perpetuation of the absurd interpretation for over 2000+ years. It persists despite the evolution of intelligence, knowledge and understanding of the source of the negative human weaknesses ascribed to Jehovah by our ignorant ancestors. Its persistence is a conundrum I cannot understand . . . except as the basis to retain power and control. ::Sigh:: QED . . . You are right that scholarship and education is not necessary to understand the Gospel . . . but it is necessary to teach it . . . especially by properly dividing thee scriptures and acknowledging the unambiguous example and message of Christ. When read with the "mind of Christ" (NOT Jehovah) the message of "love God and each other" is unmistakable and the lessons in Good and Evil are recognized for what they are . . . lessons for us to use to practice discerning Good from Evil. The REAL Gospel is easily understood when compared to what is truly "written in our hearts" by God (NOT the rationalizations and excuses in the "precepts and doctrines of men" for why God would be so evil). The Truth of Christ's love for us ALL and His commands to "love God and each other" above all else is crystal clear and there is no basis for fear. Fear was for our savage ancestors. It was the beginning of wisdom (self-control) over their savage natures. We no longer need the schoolmaster or the fear.
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Originally Posted by brakelite
Jesus did not come to correct the OT, He came to correct man's misunderstanding of the OT. The OT correctlty reveals God, but man had not rightly understood the complete picture.
Nor do they understand it still. They retain the ignorance ancient superstitious beliefs about God as a jealous, wrathful, vengeful God filled with the human psychological weaknesses we humans are heir to . . . but our GOD has none of those weaknesses.
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It was Jesus Himself who instituted the sacrificial system;
Utterly absurd! The sacrificial mindset is ancient and crosses generations and cultures. It is a primitive and savage belief in the need to assuage God .It was the spiritually immature ignorance exhibited by Noah in sacrificing the very creatures he just supposedly saved from the flood that caused God to frustratedly acknowledge our evil beliefs were the result of our spiritual immaturity.
Genesis 8:20-21 (King James Version)
20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;
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So Mystic, you are close to the truth, but you miss the true identity of who Jesus actually is. Of the coming of Jesus Isaiah described Him as The Lord our Righteousness. In Hebrew this is Jehovah Tsidkenu.
So brakelite . . . you are close to the truth but YOU miss the true identioty of Christ and replace it with the mistaken superstitious identity of Jehovah created by the savage minds of our ignorant and spiritually immature ancestors.
So brakelite . . . you are close to the truth but YOU miss the true identioty of Christ and replace it with the mistaken superstitious identity of Jehovah created by the savage minds of our ignorant and spiritually immature ancestors.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
(Heb. Jehovah, has been rendered in the English Bible LORD, printed in small capitals. This is the proper name of the God of the Hebrews. The form "Jehovah" is retained only in #Ex 6:3 #Ps 83:18 Isa 12:2 26:4 both in the Authorized and the Revised Version.)
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....
.....11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea......
....17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Mystic, you claim to be a Bible scholar. So take a careful look at the above texts all from the introduction to the book of Revelation. The introduction and a revealing of who Jesus is. Connect the dots, comparing with the passage from Isaiah. Jesus is Jehovah. The first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. The eternal only begotten Son of the Most High.
Mystic, you claim to be a Bible scholar. So take a careful look at the above texts all from the introduction to the book of Revelation. The introduction and a revealing of who Jesus is. Connect the dots, comparing with the passage from Isaiah. Jesus is Jehovah. The first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. The eternal only begotten Son of the Most High.
It is NOT Jehovah as revealed by Jesus that is the problem . . . it is the Jehovah that was believed by our savage and ignorant ancestors that is the problem. God is God is God . . . but the ONLY TRUE REVEALED GOD is the one revealed by the example and teaching of Jesus Christ . . . NOT the one described by our savage ancestors in their superstitions and ignorance.
I'm not a Christian so I'm going to approach this "died for our sins" concept from a different angle.
Consider that Jesus may have said something to the effect that "I am the way" as it says in the Bible. Is it possible that he SHOWED the way and had no interest in being worshiped or embraced as a literal bridge between God and Man? Looked at from this alternative perspective, "Died for our sins" can mean something like the following:
Nobody can escape suffering, ignorance and delusion as long as they are living from ego, desire, pride and self-interest. The death of the ego is the way. Jesus humbled himself as reported in many stories in the Gospels (especially in the Gnostic gospels which were censored by the Romans), and the ultimate act of humility and death of ego was to be nailed to a cross between a pair of common thieves, naked and berated by an angry mob.
He devoted his life to showing the way, the path toward liberation from Self. This is a kind of Buddhist interpretation. There is some evidence and speculation that during the mysterious decades of his life not discussed in the Bible, he traveled to other lands and learned from other cultures and traditions. Much of what he said and did reveals this possibility, that he embraced what he learned in places like Persia and India.
As for the Christian interpretation, they'e best able to make the case and I honor their beliefs.
BINGO!!!! This is not only a Buddhist interpretation but a Christian one as well...just read the words of Jesus and you may come to the realization that he taught the exact same thing...dissolution of the ego and nonattachment to not only possessions but the world. But Christians would NEVER EVER admit to this FACT!
BINGO!!!! This is not only a Buddhist interpretation but a Christian one as well...just read the words of Jesus and you may come to the realization that he taught the exact same thing...dissolution of the ego and nonattachment to not only possessions but the world. But Christians would NEVER EVER admit to this FACT!
Sorry, but death to self is the foundational concept of the true Christian. Jesus said the following and note it is repeated in all 4 gospels, and twice in two of them. I have heard literally dozens of sermons on this very topic and have preached and written on this topic many times myself; to claim no Christian would admit to this is a stretch, however, if you had said that more Christians ought to be living up to these words, then yep, agree entirely.
Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mr 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
Lu 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Lu 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
The whole concept of being "born again" is predicated on the idea that anyone who would desire to be saved must relinquish rulership of his own life and surrender all to Christ. That means death to self.
One of the foundation beliefs in the Christian religion is that when Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that he died for our sins. For those of you who know me, you know I'm not asking that in some sarcastic manner, I just honestly have never understood what that even means. First of all, Christians also believe that Jesus arose from the dead and that he's living right now so he really isn't really dead afterall. So here's a few questions about this situation. If Jesus hadn't died for our sins how would that have changed the circumstances of the lives of every human being? What exactly does it mean when Christians say he died for our sins? Are you saying that even though Jesus didn't commit the sins committed by billions of human beings that it erased their bad behavior and somehow changed the fundamental situation they would be facing and gave them an opportunity for eternal life which they otherwise would not have had? I've really never heard anyone explain this whole scenario in simple, easy to understand language that actually makes sense and yet this is one of the core principles of the Christian religion. Can anyway explain this in layman's terms without quoting the Bible and simply lay out their thoughts in an easy to understand manner?
One of the foundation beliefs in the Christian religion is that when Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that he died for our sins. For those of you who know me, you know I'm not asking that in some sarcastic manner, I just honestly have never understood what that even means. First of all, Christians also believe that Jesus arose from the dead and that he's living right now so he really isn't really dead afterall. So here's a few questions about this situation. If Jesus hadn't died for our sins how would that have changed the circumstances of the lives of every human being? What exactly does it mean when Christians say he died for our sins? Are you saying that even though Jesus didn't commit the sins committed by billions of human beings that it erased their bad behavior and somehow changed the fundamental situation they would be facing and gave them an opportunity for eternal life which they otherwise would not have had? I've really never heard anyone explain this whole scenario in simple, easy to understand language that actually makes sense and yet this is one of the core principles of the Christian religion. Can anyway explain this in layman's terms without quoting the Bible and simply lay out their thoughts in an easy to understand manner?
Does it not mean, we are all in sin or are sinning continually..?
Was it translated right?
Jesus died because of sin...and or Evil...and or the lie and the liars?
Just to bring things up to speed..."You are making a den of robbers and thieves"...When asked about MONEY or should I say the temple tax, the Roman Tax, and the idea of the engraven coins use...in those regards...what takes away what God has given freely to all living things?
And then what bribed the one whom Jesus trusted?
Again Sin and Evil...are the reason...how those two come forth in the right sentence makes or breaks the ideal.
Just died because of our continual Sins and Evils...makes more sense...to my mind.
What was proven by his death by Evil and sin...was somehow over ruled By God....as God brought him back to life to show those sinners and Evildoers something of a miracle non of the other demigods they worshipped could do....the God of Life...gave Life to the one they slaughtered..to hide the truth...and yet still the proof is undeniable...and to some unbelievable....But what I find chilling obverious is the words of that event...and the way it has spread over the entire Planet...in a peaceful and harmonious way...
What Jesus was bringing with him...was the word of forgiveness of sins from God...if we stop sinning....to be like Jesus.."Follow me" to fulfill something of the restoration Acts 3:21..and the giving and sharing ideal God showed us in Genesis 9:3...to all......Yes that is the kingdom...sharing, caring for the living..and tending to the Garden which supports it all...in a loving way.
There is nothing more...there is no other reason..it is simple..it is complex..it is the way..the light..the darkness and the spirit of creation...is all upto us to solve for, and in some way help or become helpers of....in order to
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In Church etc and even in Scripture the sacrificial angle is so emphasized, but I don't know, I always had my own way of reasoning it. The thing about the atonement is firstly, was all-powerful God truly sacrificing anything, and isn't that sort of meaningless since God is infinite and he can't really lose anything? The last time I checked sacrifice meant somehow losing something, and laying down something. Jesus DID, of course, sacrifice his position etc as God (although the Father remained the same), but when it all boils down to it the sacrifice was the pain of dying for us before being raised after 3 days. When you sacrifice for life for say your children, the power in that is because you LOSE your life for good, whereas Jesus suffered for a bit but didn't really die, because of course he can't.
Some won't agree with me, and emphasize God's need for blood sacrifice as in the OT, but I tend to see it as more God somehow 'bridging the gap'. By offering himself at the altar for us, he somehow 'purified' us, rather than 'paid for it himself.' If God is all powerful and owns everything then how can someone be indebted to him? All that is ours is His, so how can he be lacking something/or requiring something more? I think it is Him reaching out to his by coming down to our level, and I always preferred to look at it is this way.
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