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Since you have all these questions and we have not answered them to your liking then I suspect nothing we say will be to your liking. You know and I know where you want to go with this and I will not go there with you. I am not interested in sacrifices and the idea of a human sacrifice. I would recommend if you want information then you go get a book on Judaism.
The ancient world saw sacrifice as a way to atone for sins. Ancient people sacrificed animals, and people. Jews sacrificed animals because to sacrifice people was unacceptable. There were many types of sacrifices and each was done in a specific manner for specific reasons. With the destruction of the temple the sacrificial system ended. There are Jews who see a future 3rd temple and a return to the sacrificial system there are Jews who don't.
Listen, I know what is going on in my head, but I sincerely do not know what is going on in yours. I cannot read your mind. You say that you know where i am going with this, and you may be correct, but that would still be an assumption. I did not want to assume what you know or don't know. It has nothing to do with you giving me "an answer to my liking" as though the question was ever answered. Its as though I asked "what is the quickest way to get to New York" and your response is "New York is beautiful this time of year".
Of course this whole line of questioning was prompted by Mr. Greenspan's assertion that the concept of an innocent sacrifice to atone for sins was a purely Christian concoction. If the OT biblical narative is true, and Adam/Eve were the first to offer an innocent lamb as a sacrifice, than it would make since that sacrifices would be an integral part to so many cultures.
Christ was always meant to bring an end to the sacrificial system. the whole Tabernacle service/later followed by the Temple service was a symbolic forshadowing of Christ's ultimate sacrifice once and for all on Calvary.
Yes and it sheds light on your agenda... A christian agenda. You are not interested in the beliefs of others just showing the rightness of what you believe.
So your site really means nothing.
Think what you will, I was and still am sincerely interested in what you believe and why. If you don't want to share that, that is 100% your right and freedom. If you don't mind sharing but want me to be silient on what I believe, then simply let me know and I shall do my best to respect that.
I don't wish you any ill will and did not mean to ruffle any feathers. I am not hear to try and "get over" on anybody or hoodwink them into some belief. If I have shared bogus unfactual information with you, I apologise, and am more than willing to hear about its flaws.
Why exactly are you so frantic about this one point -- getting these two people's personal POVs? (Or...PsOV I guess would be more correct.) The way you're hammering away at them smacks of an "Ah-HA, gotcha!" moment...Why not just be a grownup about it and state what it is you're driving at, here?
Because your posts sure as heck don't smack of simple academic curiosity.
FWIW and from a non-Jewish perspective: Many religions practiced sacrifice at one time. In Abrahamic times it's likely that most of Europe sacrificed, as well as the Middle East. I'm pretty sure it was common in South America at about this time period too. I confess I don't know much about the east on this point but that's certainly a fair chunk of the globe right there.
Sacrifice at one time was very, very common to a variety of religions and cultures and it seems to have died out in pretty much all of them. Whatever a given religion's reasons are, it seems like there was some turning point where sacrifices just pretty much stopped happening among these particular groups.
I understand all that about sacrifices in general. My questioning, as I explained to Jazzy, was in direct response to something Mr. Greenspan had quoted, and it spoke to the specific reasoning behind the ancient Jewish sacrificial system. Mr Greenspan was making some claims and challenges that I responded to and Jazzy happened to get in on some of those responses and got sucked into the round of pointed questions. wasn't trying to rattle cages, just get some truth in how things are understood.
Think what you will, I was and still am sincerely interested in what you believe and why. If you don't want to share that, that is 100% your right and freedom. If you don't mind sharing but want me to be silient on what I believe, then simply let me know and I shall do my best to respect that.
I don't wish you any ill will and did not mean to ruffle any feathers. I am not hear to try and "get over" on anybody or hoodwink them into some belief. If I have shared bogus unfactual information with you, I apologise, and am more than willing to hear about its flaws.
When you ask questions which are answered then you accuse folks of dodging, ignoring or not answering your question when they did, it gives the feeling that you really have an agenda. My thoughts are you were fishing and looking for a debate.
You are both missing the point and dodging the question. What is the current Jewish perspective on what the ancient (from the time of the Exodus through to the dissapearance of the Ark of The Covenant) sacrificial system meant back then? What was the symbolism of the entire system? What did the animal sacrifices (I know they were not all lambs) represent? what did the blood represent? Why was it sprinkled over the Ark of the Covenant? What was the Day of Atonement all about? What was the Cleansing of the Sanctuary all about?
If you want to have the information to the question you asked and I have bolded it, then go read a book. You really don't want a discussion, you want to set us up so you can then tell us about the error in our belief and the rightness of yours. It is a "gotcha game", so I am done.
Excellent info HalfNelson. Well written and easy to follow link from the scholars who for myself are difficult to understand and follow. So as a Christian , I am in fact a "Spiritual Jew" The expert break down on the years and prophesies is not only compelling but helps inspire a lively faith for it. Ive never fully understood whether or not the Jewish Faith was still waiting for a Messiah and exactly what the system was all about, so these threads are interesting...Its almost like a garden of eden story in real life...The people ate of the forbidden fruit in their direct dis-obedience, but were given a chance to change their ways although refused. Not being an expert I wonder if there is any argument in this expert historical accounting, which seems very impressive
Christ was always meant to bring an end to the sacrificial system. the whole Tabernacle service/later followed by the Temple service was a symbolic forshadowing of Christ's ultimate sacrifice once and for all on Calvary.
Obviously the two "versions" of bible text is going to conflict. these events took place and the Jews were awaiting the Messiah...politely, rather than smoke screen...wheres the Messiah
This discussion has gone on for over 50 pages with nearly 500 comments posted. I cannot help but be amazed by what is transpiring here and why some people do not seem to understand - or refuse to understand - some of the points being made.
I confess I find it rather tedious that some of the people who are commenting here that identify themselves as Christian expect Jewish folks to conform to their logic and their biased interpretations and understanding of the Jewish teachings and holy books. It's as if they are exasperated because the Jews do not come to conclusions they as Christians have embraced.
Therefore, it seems to me the bottom line is that some of these Christians are not happy because the Jews have not converted to Christianity. There is something that is both irritating and pathetic about this. I think that after nearly 2,000 years of anti-semitic oppression and persecution the Jewish people have some very good reasons to hold onto their religion without being lectured by Christians on how to think or what to believe.
Interestingly, this debate is nothing new.
In Medieval Europe, the Christian authorities and clergy would stage public "debates" that were rehearsed and well scripted so that the hapless and powerless Jews would always lose the argument and and appear to be fools. It is just one of thousands of ways members of the Jewish community in Europe over the course of nearly 2,000 years were always publicly humiliated, degraded, and persecuted. I have read of one solitary instance where the Jewish rabbis stood their ground and actually "won" the debate. Unfortunately this so enraged the Christian authorities and clergy that these rabbis were all murdered thereafter and to add insult to injury, the local Jewish synagogue was burned down.
In the above Medieval wood-cut, sometimes called "The Disputation" , you will note the common practice of Jews being forced to wear silly ridiculous hats and they look to be clearly on the defensive. The Christians look like University professors and they carry an open Bible; the Jews seem to be clutching their scriptures tight to their bodies.
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