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No, only the evil parts! There are many, many great teachings!
It is written: 2Tim. 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
What part of All don't you understand? And by what authority do you pick and chose the teachings of the bible.
Jesus said himself that not one bit of the word will fail until all be fulfilled. Was Jesus lying? Are you calling Jesus a lier?
This is a bit off topic, but to answer the question Luke 17:20-21. The verse also appears verbatim in the Gospel of Thomas (#3) and the idea is at least alluded to in a few other canonized verses. We are part of the Kingdom of God (as sons and daughters) when we are lead by the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom 8:14).
It is written: 2Tim. 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
What part of All don't you understand? And by what authority do you pick and chose the teachings of the bible.
Jesus said himself that not one bit of the word will fail until all be fulfilled. Was Jesus lying? Are you calling Jesus a lier?
Boy this is really geting off topic but I'm in!
Hmm… texts in the Bible allegedly vouching for itself when the clear reference is to the OT writings and the Bible would not be canonized for another 300+ years! Yeah, brother Nikk, that’s real convincing. BTW, Jesus was talking about the OT law - not the Bible, if He actually said these things. In fact some Christians use the verse to prove that we are still under all the Jewish Laws. How about you, Nikk? Are you a Law Keeper?
And, for the record, I'm not calling Jesus a liar. Frankly, we can't be sure of anything He said. We have no original texts. But I think we can look at the oldest copies that we have (350 years after Jesus Death) and compare consistent sayings and teachings.
We all pick and choose – I’m no exception and, Nikk, you are no exception. That is why I said what I did in my OP – you can prove anything with the Bible.
I’m not trying to be condescending, but have you read and studied the entire Bible? Do you know how it was created? Have you ever studied early Christian History or the Roman Empire in the time of Constantine or the council of Nicene? Have you ever read anything concerning Christianity or the Bible that was not an Apologetic?
Is there anything “god” could "do or say" that would offend you? How do you justify “god’s direction” or sanction of slavery, the subjugation of women, child abuse, rape, genocide , human sacrifice and the general murder of innocents due to “the sins of another”.
The Bible has many wonderful teachings but it is also filled with horrific, vile acts and commands. The Bible, especially in the OT, paints "god" as a very man-like deity who routinely violates his own rules. The Heavenly Father that Jesus referred to can not be this "god".
I submit to the advice of Paul in Romans 9:12 “… Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.” And I don’t care where the good comes from. You can go through all kinds of long convoluted “spins” trying to justify the abject evil in the Bible but this is not First Pure and I’m not doing it!
I guess on many points we will have to agree to disagree.
“God’s Word” can not be contained in a Book, especially one that is as inconsistent as the Bible. Even so, I’m NOT throwing it all out, in fact, very little of it.
But, why didn’t Jesus or Paul or Peter or James or God Himself tell us to expect this “Holy Manuscript” in addition to the gift of God’s Spirit? Why didn’t Jesus write anything? Surely He was smart enough! Why didn’t he just hand us “His Word” before he ascended? I mean Moses had tablets, right? Why leave the writing to stiff-necked, “filthy rages” humans? Why did it take over 300 years to formulate this “critically important document”? Why isn’t God’s gift of His Spirit good enough?
Also, if the Bible was such an important “standard” and Christians can’t be without it, I guess Jesus’ disciples were in trouble as well as all the folks for the next 300 year before the RCC interpreted it for them beginning in the mid-fourth century.
The Bible has been available to the public in developed countries for only about 400 years which leaves 94% of Human History without it. And during this time, only a fraction of the population could actually read it; much less decide what it meant.
Today places like Sierra Leone, Chad, Niger and Ethiopia have literacy rates hovering at 30% or less. India alone has 500 million people unable to read the Bible even in their own language.
The point is, to the average citizen of Planet Earth, the Bible is a very inefficient way of communicating with the general population. This is not true of God’s Spirit!
I’m sorry, the Bible is NOT my standard. Christ is my standard and I can know Him by God’s Spirit. But, the Bible Does help and when it confirms the witness of the Spirit, then THAT is God’s Word to me.
Ministering to the dire needs of others is not part of a “feel good” Religion, it IS Good (and Pure) Religion! Jesus is the one who used the metric of “Fruits” as a bellwether indicator of righteous behavior. Why do I believe these words? It is because they make sense and are consistent with Jesus actions and other teachings and they quicken my spirit.
“Hell”, that is, the valley of Ge Hinnom or "Gehenna," was added, mistranslated and embellished as place of eternal punishment. Gehenna or “hell” is a garbage dump. Hell does not exist in the OT texts nor do Orthodox Jews believe in it today. The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna were mistranslated, likely on purpose. The RCC adopted these features and the book of Revelation at the last minute to prop up the concept of eternal torment.
What “seems right” is an invariant moral code and an unwavering pattern of behavior. Would you not agree? Well, the Bible does not present this witness consistently. I think it is incumbent on believers to use God’s Spirit and their God-Given ability to reason to discern both good and evil, even if it means rejecting portions of the Bible.
We read that in the beginning God “Created Man in His Image”. It seems that the ancient, bronze-aged men who wrote the OT returned the favor! I can’t live with the schizophrenic God that the Bible presents. I’m forced down one of two paths: a) agnosticism or b) a search for a higher level of truth. My personal experience with Jesus does not allow path (a) and so here I am, disfellowshipped by Orthodoxy and shunned by atheists.
Nikk wrote:
This is a bit off topic, but to answer the question Luke 17:20-21. The verse also appears verbatim in the Gospel of Thomas (#3) and the idea is at least alluded to in a few other canonized verses. We are part of the Kingdom of God (as sons and daughters) when we are lead by the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom 8:14).
Luke 17:20: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ok, I can take that. But it is not in just anyone. It is, as you say, when we are led by the indwelling of the spirit of God! The kingdom of God is just not in anyone, because you will have people reading your thread and say, the kingdom of God is in me, then they throw out the bible and follow some inner voice that tells them only the things they want to hear.
Be careful to clarify! In the R&P forum we are not talking to people who all believe in the bible.
Hmm… texts in the Bible allegedly vouching for itself when the clear reference is to the OT writings and the Bible would not be canonized for another 300+ years! Yeah, brother Nikk, that’s real convincing. BTW, Jesus was talking about the OT law - not the Bible, if He actually said these things. In fact some Christians use the verse to prove that we are still under all the Jewish Laws. How about you, Nikk? Are you a Law Keeper?
And, for the record, I'm not calling Jesus a liar. Frankly, we can't be sure of anything He said. We have no original texts. But I think we can look at the oldest copies that we have (350 years after Jesus Death) and compare consistent sayings and teachings.
We all pick and choose – I’m no exception and, Nikk, you are no exception. That is why I said what I did in my OP – you can prove anything with the Bible.
I’m not trying to be condescending, but have you read and studied the entire Bible? Do you know how it was created? Have you ever studied early Christian History or the Roman Empire in the time of Constantine or the council of Nicene? Have you ever read anything concerning Christianity or the Bible that was not an Apologetic?
Is there anything “god” could "do or say" that would offend you? How do you justify “god’s direction” or sanction of slavery, the subjugation of women, child abuse, rape, genocide , human sacrifice and the general murder of innocents due to “the sins of another”.
The Bible has many wonderful teachings but it is also filled with horrific, vile acts and commands. The Bible, especially in the OT, paints "god" as a very man-like deity who routinely violates his own rules. The Heavenly Father that Jesus referred to can not be this "god".
I submit to the advice of Paul in Romans 9:12 “… Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.” And I don’t care where the good comes from. You can go through all kinds of long convoluted “spins” trying to justify the abject evil in the Bible but this is not First Pure and I’m not doing it!
Grace & Peace, John
What I ask is not off topic, because it is you that is bringing these things up.
Jesus was refering to the OT, and Jesus was OK with the God of the OT. In fact, he refered to him as Father. Jesus used the OT, at the beginning of his ministry he quoted from Isaiah. Latter he said not one jot or title will pass away until all be fulfilled. This is the OT that we have.
I have studied the bible extensively, but regardless this is an invalid arguement from you, it is a moot point, because you argue supposed against a persons arguement, not their credentials. If you start questioning a person credentials because you don't like their arguement, then you are performing an ad hominen attack on that person and that is a no no, uneducated, and useless arguement.
I do not pick and choose with the bible. I have accepted that the bible as the innerrant word of God. You are making assumptions about me whom you do not know. Be careful, making assuption about another person in another no no. You are projecting your evil heart upon mine. God is pure and righteous and so is his word. Because you do not understand the bible does not mean that you can assume that I do not.
BTW you cannot prove anything with the bible unless you take it out of context or twist it in to do what you want. Remember this is what Satan does, he just twists the truth. That is what he did with Eve in the garden. Are you saying you are aquainted with the methods of Satan and willing to use them to prove anything with the bible?
I think it is you that needs to get an education on the bible. The God of the OT is pure and holy and righteous. It is man that is evil. And it is evil men who read the OT and only find an evil God.
If you start questioning a person credentials because you don't like their arguement, then you are performing an ad hominen attack on that person and that is a no no, uneducated, and useless arguement.
Yes, Nikk, I was a bit forward with this. Forgive me.
Quote:
Instead Jfraysee has rejected the bible entirely to rant against the atrocities of christian men and women. No taking quotes out of context, because the context is troden under feet.
Not true as I stated - Politely, I might add.
Quote:
You are projecting your evil heart upon mine.
Comparing my POV with yours was presumptuous. My bad again – sorry!
Quote:
Are you saying you are aquainted with the methods of Satan and willing to use them to prove anything with the bible?
I don't think that "Satan" give me this burden and I'm sorry if you think I'm using "satan's methods".
Quote:
I think it is you that needs to get an education on the bible.
Yes, I'll keep studying. Maybe one day I will understand it all better.
Sorry for all of my Ad Hominem attacks. I’ll shut up now!
Nikk wrote:
Yes, Nikk, I was a bit forward with this. Forgive me.
Not true as I stated - Politely, I might add.
Comparing my POV with yours was presumptuous. My bad again – sorry!
I don't think that "Satan" give me this burden and I'm sorry if you think I'm using "satan's methods".
Yes, I'll keep studying. Maybe one day I will understand it all better.
Sorry for all of my Ad Hominem attacks. I’ll shut up now!
jfraysee, it is not about shutting up, but it is about discussing the bible. If you want to discuss a point about the bible, whether the great commision and its relevance or something Christ said, or the God of the OT that is OK. Pull up a point and we can talk about it.
This forum is full of highly educated people who believe many different things: Agnostics, Deists, Atheists, etc... We all believe what we believe for a reason. Discuss it. And if your dug in to your beliefs where you are, that is fine. But, there is no need to just shut up. Open discussion is good and what we all like.
Remember it is written, in the multitude of council there is wisdom.
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Boy this is really geting off topic but I'm in!
Hmm… texts in the Bible allegedly vouching for itself when the clear reference is to the OT writings and the Bible would not be canonized for another 300+ years! Yeah, brother Nikk, that’s real convincing. BTW, Jesus was talking about the OT law - not the Bible, if He actually said these things. In fact some Christians use the verse to prove that we are still under all the Jewish Laws. How about you, Nikk? Are you a Law Keeper?
