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I would love to but I can't read your mind. Also, please keep in mind that I am committing my time here as well in order to try to answer your OP.
Philosophy and Science
Are you familiar with the law of causality?
"Every effect has a cause."
Yes I know you are but you don't have to nor did I ask you specifically, but you can just let it out, give me your thoughts and belief. You do not need to read my mind in order to explain your thoughts.
Yes we hashed the every effect has a cause, except God of course ( as I have been told) easy answer with no explanation. I asked what was god doing before he created time and space and was told to ask him. So, since we rehashed it here and on another forum, let us get past the universe issue. I need something besides the god is the cause explanation. There are many ideas and theories that argue against it. I hope you understand and do not think I am being rude, I am really not trying to be.
Yes I know you are but you don't have to nor did I ask you specifically, but you can just let it out, give me your thoughts and belief. You do not need to read my mind in order to explain your thoughts.
Yes we hashed the every effect has a cause, except God of course ( as I have been told) easy answer with no explanation. I asked what was god doing before he created time and space and was told to ask him. So, since we rehashed it here and on another forum, let us get past the universe issue. I need something besides the god is the cause explanation. There are many ideas and theories that argue against it. I hope you understand and do not think I am being rude, I am really not trying to be.
Then you believe that God exists or that if God exists - then God must be an EFFECT?
I believe we all do have the same morals, however, we do not always (maybe not even most of the time) make moral decisions. Some in America do feel that it is O.K. to marry more than one woman at a time but that does not make it moral and/or right.
In other words, the only real morals are yours. Even if a person has firm moral principles and is absolutely convinced that what he/she does is right, he/she is wrong if he/she does not agree with your moral principles.
So what makes your moral principles superior, "right"? God or the bible? That would be circular logic (remember that you used our moral sense as evidence of God's existence).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semovera
jAll I have to do is look at myself, I know right and wrong. It is instilled in my conscience. Even though I know right from wrong, I still choose to against the standard of what I know to be right and do things that go against the moral law. I hate it, believe me I do, but I do it.
And you think others are different? In our culture, infidelity is "wrong", and can make one feel bad. In a culture where women are shared and relationships are temporary, don't you think a man who wants to keep a woman for himself feel just as terrible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semovera
If I practice immorality to a point where I am desensitized to it and it becomes the norm for me, it still doesn't make it right.
From whose point of view? Yourse? But to you, it now feels acceptable. Other people's? But you don't accept other people's judgment for other moral choices (see quote below), and "other people" includes people with a completely different culture and moral values. God? Circular logic, unless you can prove God's existence in another way (in which case only that way matter for the purpose of this thread, and this discussion was off-topic).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semovera
You and I both know that we cannot look to "society" to teach us anything. It is in our conscience.
You still assume that everybody in the whole world (and whatever the period) share a same conscience. This is simply not true, except for instincts which have an evolutionary explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semovera
On that note. My wife is coming home and I would like to welcome her the right way. Enjoyed the conversation. It was actually my first time posting. You all take it easy. I'll post back a little later to see if anyone is still here.
Enjoyed it too, and welcome to this forum. I'm leaving on holiday tomorrow though, and my internet access will be limited. Expect long posts separated by long periods of silence .
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
not trying to be. Then you believe that God exists or that if God exists - then God must be an EFFECT?
What's wrong with the idea that the existence of the universe isn't an effect?
In fact, I think I'd need a solid definition of "effect".
Then you believe that God exists or that if God exists - then God must be an EFFECT?
I do not know if I believe in a God. If everything has a cause and effect, what caused God? Nothing right, he just was? I believe the universe was created by expanding energy over billions of years, it is still expanding, it is infinite. What was God doing before time and space? Which would mean there was something before time and space, what was it?
I do not know if I believe in a God. If everything has a cause and effect, what caused God? Nothing right, he just was? I believe the universe was created by expanding energy over billions of years, it is still expanding, it is infinite. What was God doing before time and space? Which would mean there was something before time and space, what was it?
That's what I'm asking you.
You state that God is an effect - upon what basis do you make this assumption?
I have to bug out for a meeting now. Please don't be so quick to dismiss the cause argument. I think there is more to this argument - more that you perhaps have not yet considered.
You state that God is an effect - upon what basis do you make this assumption?
I have to bug out for a meeting now. Please don't be so quick to dismiss the cause argument. I think there is more to this argument - more that you perhaps have not yet considered.
Others state God, is an effect or cause, I was just telling you what I was told. Or there can be a simplicity other than God that you have not yet considered. Enjoy your meeting.
I am an agnostic, basically I just don't know either way. Convince me of God WITHOUT quoting anything from the Bible. I promise to listen ( or read!) with open mind.
'Convince me of what the Bible says without telling me what the Bible says'.
lol
That's a pretty good one.
If you want to know if the God of the Bible answers prayer, I would recommend that you investigate the matter yourself.
1. Find out from the Bible how and under what conditions God says He will answer prayer.
2. Be very sure that you meet those conditions.
3. Pray.
While this is not a 'scientific' test in a strict sense, it should be useful enough to someone with a scientific outlook or a skeptical mind.
Others state God, is an effect or cause, I was just telling you what I was told. Or there can be a simplicity other than God that you have not yet considered.
Please enlighten me as to what your idea of some of these other "simplicities" are.
"It would seem that change is the only thing that is constant."
My point about the Law of Causality is that it speaks to what we are able to observe and know exists within our known universe. What we observe are constant changes/effects. Modern science very strongly points toward a beginning of our known universe and, as well, very strongly points toward it's ultimate end. This is science speaking - opposed to mythological pie-in-the-sky-bye-and-bye. Science, logic and reason militate against your previously stated view of an eternally existing universe. Going back to the three aforementioned choices - is choice #3 beginning to look a little more sensible? If not, why not?
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