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Another Source: 1 Corinthians 15, was written about 15-20 years after the resurrection by Paul. Many of the 500 witnesses who saw Christ’s reappearance were still alive.
The problem with proof by miracles...
“…the impression stupendous events have on us is rarely permanent. The impression fades with time. I have myself seen God do some incredible things with people, but in the weeks, months, and years after the even, the force of the initial impressions wears off. Precisely because the event is extraordinary, the mind seems to remember it more like a dream than a real even. It doesn’t continue to impact life. If a person does base his faith on miracles, he needs a steady diet. But then the miracles stop being miraculous…So even if God did address everyone with a message in the sky, this might convert many at the moment, but the lasting effect would, I suspect be nil.”
There’s almost nothing that can’t be explained away. The explanation doesn’t have to be good, just possible, and sometimes not even that.
According to 2 Corinthians 4:4 there is an enemy of human souls which utilizes his destructive powers to blind the eyes and ears of people. “So there’s evidence of good, but also of evil, which clouds every issue. And some of the time when things are not “clear” to people, it’s not because the issue itself isn’t clear; it’s because their mind, deceived by the will of demonic forces or their own evil-bent free will, is cloudy.”
Source: Letters from a Skeptic, Authors Dr. Gregory A. Boyd and Edward K. Boyd, copyright@2003 Cook Communications Ministries, pp. 124-125
1. Make unsupportable statements and call them 'fact'.
Amazingly, nothing seems to be supportable by atheists. What do they believe in?
2. When your 'facts' are shown to be without logic or reason say, "You just don't understand how to interpret the Bible."
What is logical and reasonable to us, is not what is necessarily the same for God? How could it be? Yes, it's left to some varying interpretations at time, but the large part of it was written for anyone to understand.
3. If your opponent is well versed in the Bible, claim that he is blinded by Satan.
Satan is sometimes used only a reference point in some examples to suggest the alternative of Godliness.
4. If you are losing your argument claim that God did it and he can do anything
One who believe in God, believes he can do anything.
[i]5. If all that fails, claim that your opponent is closed-minded.
Are you not doing the same? All of us are predisposed to our own biases and prejudices, based on our upbrings, beliefs, education, and experiences.
As a last resort....
..RUN!!.
Run suggests that all is lost, or things have deteriorated to the point that rationality is losing out to anger and spewing hatred. A debate shouldn't erode to claims of ignorances, refusal to weigh evidence, the right to rebut, etc.
I'm still here, although things continue to get uglier by many.
Another Source: 1 Corinthians 15, was written about 15-20 years after the resurrection by Paul. Many of the 500 witnesses who saw Christ’s reappearance were still alive.
The problem with proof by miracles...
“…the impression stupendous events have on us is rarely permanent. The impression fades with time. I have myself seen God do some incredible things with people, but in the weeks, months, and years after the even, the force of the initial impressions wears off. Precisely because the event is extraordinary, the mind seems to remember it more like a dream than a real even. It doesn’t continue to impact life. If a person does base his faith on miracles, he needs a steady diet. But then the miracles stop being miraculous…So even if God did address everyone with a message in the sky, this might convert many at the moment, but the lasting effect would, I suspect be nil.”
There’s almost nothing that can’t be explained away. The explanation doesn’t have to be good, just possible, and sometimes not even that.
According to 2 Corinthians 4:4 there is an enemy of human souls which utilizes his destructive powers to blind the eyes and ears of people. “So there’s evidence of good, but also of evil, which clouds every issue. And some of the time when things are not “clear” to people, it’s not because the issue itself isn’t clear; it’s because their mind, deceived by the will of demonic forces or their own evil-bent free will, is cloudy.”
Source: Letters from a Skeptic, Authors Dr. Gregory A. Boyd and Edward K. Boyd, copyright@2003 Cook Communications Ministries, pp. 124-125
Strange, I was under the impression that your christ supposedly "snuck out", and that people had no idea he had been "resurrected" until they opened the cave mouth and found his body gone.
Of course, if he was an actual person, there wouldn't be ANYONE interested in hiding the body, either to keep it from becoming a center piece of a new religion or to keep the "enemies" of the new religion from desicrating the body.
Run suggests that all is lost, or things have deteriorated to the point that rationality is losing out to anger and spewing hatred. A debate shouldn't erode to claims of ignorances, refusal to weigh evidence, the right to rebut, etc.
I'm still here, although things continue to get uglier by many.
When people ignore plain sciences and rational thought, other people tend to get frustrated.
That pretty much only leaves insult as a last resort.
Evolutionary Position Gradually Losing Public Support
There is evidence to suggest that the evolutionary position is gradually losing public support in the United States.[110] The prestigious science journal Science reported the following in 2006: "The percentage of people in the country who accept the idea of evolution has declined from 45 in 1985 to 40 in 2005. Meanwhile the fraction of Americans unsure about evolution has soared from 7 per cent in 1985 to 21 per cent last year.[110] In January 2006, the BBC reported the following in respect to Britain:
“ Just under half of Britons accept the theory of evolution as the best description for the development of life, according to an opinion poll.
Furthermore, more than 40% of those questioned believe that creationism or intelligent design (ID) should be taught in school science lessons.[111]
Irreligion and Superstition
In September of 2008, the Wall Street Journal reported:
“ The reality is that the New Atheist campaign, by discouraging religion, won't create a new group of intelligent, skeptical, enlightened beings. Far from it: It might actually encourage new levels of mass superstition. And that's not a conclusion to take on faith -- it's what the empirical data tell us.
"What Americans Really Believe," a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians....
This is not a new finding. In his 1983 book "The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener," skeptic and science writer Martin Gardner cited the decline of traditional religious belief among the better educated as one of the causes for an increase in pseudoscience, cults and superstition. He referenced a 1980 study published in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer that showed irreligious college students to be by far the most likely to embrace paranormal beliefs, while born-again Christian college students were the least likely.[113]
Decline of Atheism as an Intellectual Position
According to Munich theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg "Atheism as a theoretical position is in decline worldwide."[114] Given that the evolutionary position is a often cited component of the ideology of atheism in the Western world, the gradual loss of public support of the evolutionary position is one of the many factors which are eroding the ideology of atheism. Oxford scholar Alister McGrath cites a number of additional factors in regards to the decline of atheism as an intellectual position.[115] [116]
Given the many factors which are eroding atheism as a intellectual position McGrath states:
“ ...Atheism is in trouble. Its future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its natural habitat.[117]
I'm struggling to understand your reason for being atheists
What turned each of you away from the idea of God to the idea of nothing after you die? I'm trying to understand your position and rationale. You say it can't be supported, but there doesn't seem to be any way to fulfill that need. If you compare the evidence provided at a trial to God's existence, it seems to more than satisfy the legal definition of proof. I realize everything has two sides, just as there are a prosecutor and defense attorney at trials, but what proof exists to deny God?
To this end, I tried to research what causes one to become an atheist. They are interesting, but do any of these apply to you, and if so, would you say they contributed to your atheist belief? I'm not suggesting any of these brought you to believe in what you do, but what other things can you share that explain your belief? Struggling to fully understand...
Causes of Atheism - From Conservapedia
In regards to the causes of atheism, there are a number of reasonable explanations for atheism:
Moral depravity: The history of the atheist community and various studies regarding the atheist community point to moral depravity being a causal factor for atheism. In addition, there is the historical matter of deceit being used in a major way to propagate atheism from the time of Charles Darwin onward. Also, Bible exegesis points to the moral depravity of atheists. Moral depravity is certainly one of the prime causes of atheism.
Rebellion: Atheism stems from a deliberate choice to ignore the reality of God's existence [1] (If there was a God, there wouldn't be so much suffering.)[2]
Superficiality: Noted ex-atheist and psychologist Dr. Paul Vitz has stated that he had superficial reasons for becoming an atheist such as the desire to be accepted by his Stanford professors who were united in disbelief regarding God.[3]
Error: Some argue that atheism partly stems from a failure to fairly and judiciously consider the facts [4]
State churches: In regards to the causes of atheism, rates of atheism are much higher in countries with a state sanctioned religion (such as many European countries), and lower in states without a sanctioned religion (such as the United States). Some argue this is because state churches become bloated, corrupt, and/or out of touch with the religious intuitions of the population, while churches independent of the state are leaner and more adaptable. It is important to distinguish "state-sanctioned churches," where participation is voluntary, from "state-mandated churches" (such as Saudi Arabia) with much lower atheism rates because publicly admitted atheism is punishable by death. [5]
Poor relationship with father: Some argue that a troubled/non-existent relationship with a father may influence one of the causes of atheism.[6] Dr. Paul Vitz wrote a book entitled Faith of the Fatherless in which he points out that after studying the lives of more than a dozen leading atheists he found that a large majority of them had a father who was present but weak, present but abusive, or absent.[7][8] Dr. Vitz also examined the lives of prominent theists who were contemporaneous to their atheist counterparts and from the same culture and in every instance these prominent theists had a good relationship with his father.[9] Dr. Vitz has also stated other common factors he observed in the leading atheists he profiled: they were all intelligent and arrogant.[10]
Division in religion: According to Francis Bacon, atheism is caused by "divisions in religion, if they be many; for any one main division addeth zeal to both sides, but many divisions introduce atheism." [11]
Learned times, peace, and prosperity: Francis Bacon argued that atheism was partly caused by "Learned times, specially with peace and prosperity; for troubles and adversities do more bow men’s minds to religion."[12] Jewish columnist Dennis Prager has stated that one of the causes of atheism is the "secular indoctrination of a generation." [13] Prager stated that "From elementary school through graduate school, only one way of looking at the world – the secular – is presented. The typical individual in the Western world receives as secular an indoctrination as the typical European received a religious one in the Middle Ages."[14] Atheists and secularists rarely point out that universities such as Harvard, Princeton, Oxford, Cambridge, and many others were founded by Christians.[15][16]
Negative experiences with theists.
Scientism: Science has in many ways become a new God. [17]
Sources:
1. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." —Romans 1:19-20 (NKJV)
2. What was the cause of atheism
3. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/vitz.txt
4. "A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous." -- C.S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy.
5. In Europe, God Is (Not) Dead - WSJ.com
6. The Psychology of Atheism
7. Vitz, Paul, The Psychology of Atheism, September 24, 1997 (lecture notes taken by an audience member).
8 . Anders, Kerby, Atheists and Their Fathers (Probe Ministries)
9. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/vitz.txt
10. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/vitz.txt
11. http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/ofatheism.html (broken link)
12. http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/ofatheism.html (broken link)
13. How atheism is being sold to America
14. FCC victory report
15. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford—Once Christian? - Answers in Genesis
16. History of America's Education #3 Universities, Textbooks and Our Founders
17. Why Atheism?
Retrieved from "Causes of Atheism - Conservapedia"
Strange, I was under the impression that your christ supposedly "snuck out", and that people had no idea he had been "resurrected" until they opened the cave mouth and found his body gone.
Of course, if he was an actual person, there wouldn't be ANYONE interested in hiding the body, either to keep it from becoming a center piece of a new religion or to keep the "enemies" of the new religion from desicrating the body.
If you were right, what would explain the change in the demeanor and behavior of the disciples? They were cowardly and denying Christ before His crucifixion and went to their death defending Christianity after it. The Christianity movement took off like wild fire even though they were consistently persecuted and executed.
The Romans were very vested in making sure once Jesus was killed, that he remained under guard so the body couldn't be stolen. The last thing they wanted was His body to disappear and give credence to His claims. All they had to do is guard His tomb for just three days, and then show His body to the masses and Christianity would've been a bookmark in time -- and nothing more. That's what they wanted. Even the corrupt members of the church wanted that. Imagine their horror when He wasn't in the tomb... He had to have appeared before many on His return for the movement to take hold like it did. If He had appeared to just a few, they would've immediately been dismissed as nuts. Those He visited on His resurrection were so convinced that many of them went to their deaths rather than recant their faith.
How many Atheists would be crucified rather than denouncing their belief that no God existed? Are there any?
Nobody takes conservapedia seriously so should you cite it, we too should not take your arguments seriously, maybe venture into the dungeon of the A&A forum and read some threads there.
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Evolution Position is Losing Support
