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Read your post, you admit you need god to get through life and that is exactly what theism is all about. Pretty much like Linus' security blanket.
I did not create myself or the earth and I can't make myself live forever. Recognizing I need God does not make him my crutch. If I needed a crutch and didn't use it, I could still live. Without God, I wouldn't have life.
I did not create myself or the earth and I can't make myself live forever.
No one can, we are all mortal. Death is final and no one comes back from being really dead. Pretending that there is some kind of afterlife is wishful thinking. Men invented this other realm to deal with the finality of their own mortality. When you die, you will not even know you are dead, pretty much like it was before you became self aware at about 2-3 years old.
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Recognizing I need God does not make him my crutch.
Yes it does.
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If I needed a crutch and didn't use it, I could still live. Without God, I wouldn't have life.
Why, I do not need a god and I am doing well all things considered.
Your god is merely an extension of your own ego. This is why you think you need it.
No one can, we are all mortal. Death is final and no one comes back from being really dead. Pretending that there is some kind of afterlife is wishful thinking. Men invented this other realm to deal with the finality of their own mortality. When you die, you will not even know you are dead, pretty much like it was before you became self aware at about 2-3 years old.
Yes it does.
Why, I do not need a god and I am doing well all things considered.
Your god is merely an extension of your own ego. This is why you think you need it.
You're the one claiming to be doing well without God. I give credit to God.
You're the one claiming to be doing well without God. I give credit to God.
Why?
I am sure if you really evaluate (consider my freewill arguments) 99% of your well being is probably due to your own efforts. No matter, b/c god is only a projection of your inner self (extension of your ego), you are doing this anyway.
All the god baggage you think you experience in life or in a church setting all have valid scientific, logical explanations.
But getting back onto the topic of the thread, bad things happen to good people. Even the bible alludes to this where it is stated that it rains on the just and the unjust alike. Whoever penned that obviously saw that god belief did not seem to make one iota of difference in day to day life.
Religion indoctrinates you to assume that you are incomplete, a sinner in need of redemption. They create this faux deficiency and then proceed to fill it. It is pretty much the same technique door to door salesmen are taught; I was one so I can make the comparison and I was pretty good at it.
You can dismiss everything associated to religious doctrines and still lead pretty much the same life. I know in the US this is a tad more complex as there you appear to get dissed by your peers if you do not hold onto their inane beliefs.
Topics like these invariably bring out the questions of god's omniscience, his micromanaging of stuff and why it does not appear as it is supposed to. Like the OP suggesting punishment due to failed personal relationships, the god factor allows deference to a deity who is somehow punishing them for something unrelated. It is never the fault of the person themselves.
To the OP, if you think god is so overly concerned about your pithy life, why does he not intervene likewise in Africa where every 6 seconds a child dies of starvation? This aspect of being someone special is more destructive than it is constructive. You are no more special to the bigger scheme of things than the poor kid that just died in Africa.
In my other language we have this expression which says, you are complaining while having a white bread tucked under your arm.
You're the one claiming to be doing well without God. I give credit to God.
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Why?
I am sure if you really evaluate (consider my freewill arguments) 99% of your well being is probably due to your own efforts. No matter, b/c god is only a projection of your inner self (extension of your ego), you are doing this anyway.
A Christian's well being is derived from the Bible (cause) when we make choices (free will) that are in harmony with what the Bible teaches. There is practical information about honoring your father and mother, loving your neighbor as yourself, do not commit murder, love your wife or husband as yourself and do not commit adultery, avoid over drinking, etc. The problem is many do not make application in their lives but that is a consequence of making choices.
All the god baggage you think you experience in life or in a church setting all have valid scientific, logical explanations.
I'm not sure what is meant by God baggage, however, science does what it should do and attempt to explain the mechanisms by which we exist, experience emotions, thoughts, etc. That being said what science also shows is the physical universe is governed according to laws and to believe that all we experience today developed through random chance is in my mind unscientific as this would be tantamount to believing in luck. The viewpoint that everything can be explained by science right down to the atomic level actually provokes more debate because for a Christian, God reveals himself through the creation and so the driving force is to understand the One who made all things.
But getting back onto the topic of the thread, bad things happen to good people. Even the bible alludes to this where it is stated that it rains on the just and the unjust alike. Whoever penned that obviously saw that god belief did not seem to make one iota of difference in day to day life.
No, the scripture you are thinking about is the one that states, "time and unforeseen occurences befall us all." However, it is of interest you brought up Matthew 5:45 (makes it rain on the righteous and unrighteous) because it may have prevented much hostility shown through the ages, for example, towards atheists and prevented much bloodshed caused by misapplication of religious beliefs. God does not withold his kindness toward the unthankful nor the wicked therefore we are directed to likewise imitate God.
Religion indoctrinates you to assume that you are incomplete, a sinner in need of redemption. They create this faux deficiency and then proceed to fill it. It is pretty much the same technique door to door salesmen are taught; I was one so I can make the comparison and I was pretty good at it.
I wouldn't disagree that you were a pretty good door to door salesman you have that fast and loose "talk" about you. My viewpoint is if one does not acknowledge that they are indeed sinners then it's really done for the sake of expediency as the individual avoids having to confront questions about morality.
You can dismiss everything associated to religious doctrines and still lead pretty much the same life. I know in the US this is a tad more complex as there you appear to get dissed by your peers if you do not hold onto their inane beliefs.
On a social level you can pretty much live the same life and there will be an increasing number who reject God that is no surprise for people who read and understand the Bible. So your life will likely become more comfortable in that respect. However, as you noted in your previous attempt to allude to scripture, God does not withhold his kindness from people although this doesn't mean those who put faith in him don't have additional blessings.
Topics like these invariably bring out the questions of god's omniscience, his micromanaging of stuff and why it does not appear as it is supposed to. Like the OP suggesting punishment due to failed personal relationships, the god factor allows deference to a deity who is somehow punishing them for something unrelated. It is never the fault of the person themselves.
You are mistaken. Not all Christians view God as somehow causing calamity or catastrophe in their lives. A Christian is responsible for his or her actions and we make wrong choices as well.
To the OP, if you think god is so overly concerned about your pithy life, why does he not intervene likewise in Africa where every 6 seconds a child dies of starvation? This aspect of being someone special is more destructive than it is constructive. You are no more special to the bigger scheme of things than the poor kid that just died in Africa.
In my other language we have this expression which says, you are complaining while having a white bread tucked under your arm.
I am sure this has been discussed infinitum, but I want your opinion.
Why does God allow the innocent to die? Kids suffer and die horrable deaths. Friends and relatives die for no obvious reason. Millions of innocent people have died in wars and natural catasthropies. Not only do they die, but they may suffer incrediable pain and suffering in the process...WHY?
Christian's well being is derived from the Bible (cause) when we make choices (free will) that are in harmony with what the Bible teaches. There is practical information about honoring your father and mother, loving your neighbor as yourself, do not commit murder, love your wife or husband as yourself and do not commit adultery, avoid over drinking, etc. The problem is many do not make application in their lives but that is a consequence of making choices.
Harmony you say? OT states that kids should be stoned for disobedience and the NT suggests that you should hate your parents and follow Jesus instead, that is hardly a book worth referring to for harmony. The secular laws in most westernised countries cater for the well being of the citizens and anything biblical adds nothing to them. In fact you are NOT able to enact the so called morality laws of the bible as they are now deemed illegal.
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I'm not sure what is meant by God baggage, however, science does what it should do and attempt to explain the mechanisms by which we exist, experience emotions, thoughts, etc.
Maybe it does not apply to you but we are often told the euphoria folk experience in a religious setting somehow proves a god exists. I know as I too experienced that and it is ALL a product of your brain and its chemistry. You learn to release this anointing and the brain obliges.
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That being said what science also shows is the physical universe is governed according to laws and to believe that all we experience today developed through random chance is in my mind unscientific as this would be tantamount to believing in luck. The viewpoint that everything can be explained by science right down to the atomic level actually provokes more debate because for a Christian, God reveals himself through the creation and so the driving force is to understand the One who made all things.
This is merely theistic evolution, theistic cosmology and trying to squeeze your head god into the known findings of science.
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No, the scripture you are thinking about is the one that states, "time and unforeseen occurences befall us all."
No, I know the scriptures and cited the correct verse. However the one you mention actually makes my point not yours. Which is ironic as you reject the assertion of the randomness and/or grand accident then cite a verse that suggests just that.
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However, it is of interest you brought up Matthew 5:45 (makes it rain on the righteous and unrighteous) because it may have prevented much hostility shown through the ages, for example, towards atheists and prevented much bloodshed caused by misapplication of religious beliefs. God does not withold his kindness toward the unthankful nor the wicked therefore we are directed to likewise imitate God.
You may need to have another stab at this as I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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I wouldn't disagree that you were a pretty good door to door salesman you have that fast and loose "talk" about you. My viewpoint is if one does not acknowledge that they are indeed sinners then it's really done for the sake of expediency as the individual avoids having to confront questions about morality.
Interesting blue bit, you psychic?
What is there to confront about morality? It gets back to what I previously said, the church and/or religion suggests you have some deficiency then attempts to sell you BS. As much as you like to think you conform to some biblical aspect of morality, you do not. Society determines that and you are taught by your parents first and then your peers. The bible is far from a moral guideline as that has been debated to death here and the theists all run away when the inconsistencies are put front and centre.
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On a social level you can pretty much live the same life and there will be an increasing number who reject God that is no surprise for people who read and understand the Bible. So your life will likely become more comfortable in that respect. However, as you noted in your previous attempt to allude to scripture, God does not withhold his kindness from people although this doesn't mean those who put faith in him don't have additional blessings.
They do not have additional blessings. You Americans really think you are special yet fail to examine your assertions and beliefs on a global scale. Why would any god favour Americans over Africans? Think about that. There is no one applying or withholding blessings, you are just fortunate to live in a 1st world country as I do to a lesser extent. And of course, leading up to where you now find yourself are the collective results of folk that preceded you. IOW back to the freewill aspect of stuff outside of your control and/or influence. Black god believers in Africa are mostly dirt poor, unless they are pastors exploiting the ignorant, their religious beliefs makes no difference one way or the other as far as material "blessings" go.
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You are mistaken. Not all Christians view God as somehow causing calamity or catastrophe in their lives.
Well based on what you posted you seem to think being a believer somehow makes a difference.
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A Christian is responsible for his or her actions and we make wrong choices as well.
So, the choices you make have nothing to do with god belief? That is the truth but I am sure it is not what you meant to say.
You really should try to think stuff through before you post as this reply was contradictory and pretty much a word salad.
Originally Posted by hd4me
Christian's well being is derived from the Bible (cause) when we make choices (free will) that are in harmony with what the Bible teaches. There is practical information about honoring your father and mother, loving your neighbor as yourself, do not commit murder, love your wife or husband as yourself and do not commit adultery, avoid over drinking, etc. The problem is many do not make application in their lives but that is a consequence of making choices.
Harmony you say? OT states that kids should be stoned for disobedience and the NT suggests that you should hate your parents and follow Jesus instead, that is hardly a book worth referring to for harmony. The secular laws in most westernised countries cater for the well being of the citizens and anything biblical adds nothing to them. In fact you are NOT able to enact the so called morality laws of the bible as they are now deemed illegal.
There are various scriptures in the Bible that speak to capital punishment including one that would lead a cursory reader of the Bible to such a conclusion. Would you like to share that scripture?
As far as alluding to Jesus stating hate your parents and follow Jesus instead? Would you again like to share that scripture? Indeed please by all means share the passage so we can get the full sense of it.
Who states I and like minded Christians today would enact such laws? Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Why would, for example, a Christian need secular law to limit the definition of marriage between a man and women. The Bible defines marriage but It's really a domain of civil authorities to decide to legally expand that definition. Why would a Christian need secular law to define adultery as a crime? We have it in our hearts not to hurt our mates.
The Bible said long ago what you observe today in most Westernized countries. The difference in opinion is how did the nations arrive at having a law unto themselves? “For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.”
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA, But getting back onto the topic of the thread, bad things happen to good people. Even the bible alludes to this where it is stated that it rains on the just and the unjust alike. Whoever penned that obviously saw that god belief did not seem to make one iota of difference in day to day life.
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No, the scripture you are thinking about is the one that states, "time and unforeseen occurences befall us all."
No, I know the scriptures and cited the correct verse. However the one you mention actually makes my point not yours. Which is ironic as you reject the assertion of the randomness and/or grand accident then cite a verse that suggests just that.
Citing a verse (an incomplete citing at that) is one thing correctly applying it is also necessary
The passage in the Book of Matthew 5: 44-48, "“YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.
It means God shows kindness for all whether they reject him or love him. So likewise we show kindness to all not just those that are agreeable to us.
The scripture about time and unforeseen occurrences befall us all applies to the unpredictable elements of life not to its creation ( or absolute evolution in your case) We can plan to be home for dinner but a drunk driver could end it all (God did not cause you to be there in that moment and neither did he direct the driver your way). And so when you stated, "bad things happen to good people" the scripture in Matthew that you alluded to does not apply. By the way randomness, chance and luck are the domain of a casino they do not describe the cosmos which operates by a set of laws.
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I wouldn't disagree that you were a pretty good door to door salesman you have that fast and loose "talk" about you. My viewpoint is if one does not acknowledge that they are indeed sinners then it's really done for the sake of expediency as the individual avoids having to confront questions about morality.
As much as you like to think you conform to some biblical aspect of morality, you do not. Society determines that and you are taught by your parents first and then your peers.
Sorry but no. if Society thinks it's ok to engage in prejudice, bigotry, ethnic strife, wars, greed, love of money, violent entertainment and the like and I and like minded individuals refuse it's because the Bible gives us a true measuring line of what is just.
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On a social level you can pretty much live the same life and there will be an increasing number who reject God that is no surprise for people who read and understand the Bible. So your life will likely become more comfortable in that respect. However, as you noted in your previous attempt to allude to scripture, God does not withhold his kindness from people although this doesn't mean those who put faith in him don't have additional blessings.
They do not have additional blessings. You Americans really think you are special yet fail to examine your assertions and beliefs on a global scale. Why would any god favour Americans over Africans? Think about that. There is no one applying or withholding blessings, you are just fortunate to live in a 1st world country as I do to a lesser extent. And of course, leading up to where you now find yourself are the collective results of folk that preceded you. IOW back to the freewill aspect of stuff outside of your control and/or influence. Black god believers in Africa are mostly dirt poor, unless they are pastors exploiting the ignorant, their religious beliefs makes no difference one way or the other as far as material "blessings" go[/spoiler]
Oh Dude epic fail on this you truly missed the point. You think blessings are the material but for myself and others the blessings are spiritual and practical. The truth about what happens when we die (no afterlife), hell (no hell), worries about the future: will the the earth blow up, become a lifeless spec in space, be invaded by aliens, etc, etc., family happiness, health, and brotherhood. But, I do agree with you that God does not favor any nation, national group, ethnic tribe, etc on earth and yes religion has exploited many.
Spoiler
You really should try to think stuff through before you post as this reply was contradictory and pretty much a word salad
Perhaps a word salad to you but as you mentioned you were a salesman and salesmen employ a technique of creating a "faux deficiency" when there is none hmmm
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