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...and what are the conclusions of those 18 centuries of miracles and events! If we look at Lourdes for example, it has an average of 5,000,000 visitors a year that are looking for miracle cures. So 5,000,000 visitors a year over 18 centuries is...ummmm, well a lot (anyone good at maths?). Yet in all those people going there and praying for a miracle cure for their affliction, the Catholic Church has only acknowledged 67 'unexplained happenings'. Not a very good record of success is it?
So now we're agreeing on miracles but there's just not enough?
Would you rather the Catholic Church nod to every miraculous claim to bolster numbers? Surely you would come down twice as hard on that.
They are exercising incredible discretion and prudence with these matters as it's much safer to say it's not a miracle than to allow something that will later prove false. All signs of wisdom and maturity.
People who throw stones don't care what they throw them at as long as they can throw them. And when you make their target smaller they complain they have been unjustly treated.
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity
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This is the definition of a pure atheist therefore they believe that there is no god.
Correct.
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Many atheists wont face this pure definition, but its the truth and describes their belief perfectly. Therefore, they also have a burden to prove that god doesnt exist.
Nope! If the atheist says "I don't believe gods exist", he is stating his belief and does not make a positive statement regarding the existence or the non-existence of gods. Therefore he bears no 'burden of proof' (BoP) regarding his beliefs. If, on the other hand he were to say " Gods do not exist" or "I know gods do not exist" then he does have the BoP to show that his claim is true.
When the Christian says, "God exists", "the Bible is true", "God speaks to me" etc, then he makes a positive statement and bears the BoP to prove that what he says is true. If he wants to avoid the BoP he must say " I believe that that God exists". In that way he is only stating his beliefs not claiming that something is a fact.
As you can see from the definition you posted. An atheist is someone who has no belief in deities. Believing or not believing something does not subject you to the BoP....it's only when you claim that something is a fact that the hammer falls.
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Plus most theoretical physicists know today that during the precise moment of the big bang there needed to be a fine tuning of perfect of the 4 natural laws (gravity, Electromagnetic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear) to the point where if they were off even minutely the universe would collapse back into itself.
.... Stay away from 'Creation Science' sites my friend. Their arguments for creation will only make you look foolish when you start to post nonsense like "If the sun was just a few hundred miles closer we would all burn up".
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There needed to be some purposeful force (an intelligent force) needed to fine tune the 4 natural forces during the big bang explosion.
Where did this 'intelligent force' come from?
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Atheists cant deny this and this is what the more intellectual theist debaters talk about now that stops the atheist in his tracks.
Yeah! Right!!
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This shows how rediculous alot of atheists think.
....from a dude that believes in talking animals, Global floods and every creature on the planet fitting into a small boat!! <shaking head in dis-belief>
Our minds (brains to an atheist) can not go beyond concepts which are all in the realm of duality.
Our Creator IS....and always IS....and never wasn't.
ARe you asking for a flow chart now?
Spiritual realities are way beyond our concepts and our need to catalogue/define. This is what atheists just don't get. They want God to fit into their concepts. Golden calf syndrome.
OK! As you don't seem to have a problem grasping the infinite god concept, please tell us why you have such a problem grasping the infinite universe concept.
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Our minds (brains to an atheist) can not go beyond concepts which are all in the realm of duality.
Speak for yourself!
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Our Creator IS....and always IS....and never wasn't.
The universe IS....and always IS.....and never wasn't.
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Spiritual realities ........
Spiritual 'realities'??
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This is what atheists just don't get. They want God to fit into their concepts. Golden calf syndrome.
Au contraire! We have no belief in gods. Why would we want to fit them any where?
OK! As you don't seem to have a problem grasping the infinite god concept, please tell us why you have such a problem grasping the infinite universe concept.
Did i say that? I have no problem with infinite universe at all.You are assuming an infinite universe means no God???
a Rose is a rose no matter what you call it.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Speak for yourself!
Oh, I see. You are the ONLY human being who's conceptual mind goes beyond concepts. Fine. Funny thing is you're having a difficult time grasping anything that's not limited or has no beginning..
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Originally Posted by Rafius
The universe IS....and always IS.....and never wasn't.
and is UNIFIED by One LIFE.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Spiritual 'realities'??
Yes, How can I help?
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Au contraire! We have no belief in gods. Why would we want to fit them any where?
You don't believe BECAUSE they don't fit.
Last edited by pie in ear; 09-10-2009 at 09:45 AM..
OK! As you don't seem to have a problem grasping the infinite god concept, please tell us why you have such a problem grasping the infinite universe concept.
Speak for yourself!
The universe IS....and always IS.....and never wasn't.
Spiritual 'realities'??
Au contraire! We have no belief in gods. Why would we want to fit them any where?
Special pleading!!
Alright. I see. We do agree on an infinite universe. We don't agree on the UNITY of all life.
Oh, I see. You are the ONLY human being who's conceptual mind goes beyond concepts. Fine. Funny thing is you're having a difficult time grasping anything that's not limited or has no beginning..
Did I say that? Merely pointing out that just because you are unable to do so, don't assume that there are those that can't.
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity
This is the definition of a pure atheist therefore they believe that there is no god. Many atheists wont face this pure definition, but its the truth and describes their belief perfectly. Therefore, they also have a burden to prove that god doesnt exist. They have no evidence of thsi at all so their belief is a strawman belief. Plus most theoretical physicists know today that during the precise moment of the big bang there needed to be a fine tuning of perfect of the 4 natural laws (gravity, Electromagnetic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear) to the point where if they were off even minutely the universe would collapse back into itself. There needed to be some purposeful force (an intelligent force) needed to fine tune the 4 natural forces during the big bang explosion. Atheists cant deny this and this is what the more intellectual theist debaters talk about now that stops the atheist in his tracks. This shows how rediculous alot of atheists think.
Main Entry: in·sane
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)in-ˈsān\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin insanus, from in- + sanus sane
Date: circa 1550
1: mentally disordered : exhibiting insanity 2: used by, typical of, or intended for insane persons <an insane asylum> 3:absurd <an insane scheme for making money> 4:extreme 1
— in·sane·lyadverb
— in·sane·ness \-ˈsān-nəs\ noun
If I told you that I believe I have an invisible freind, who I can't see, but he is always watching out for me, would you think I'm insane. What if I told you that my invisible freind only asks that I believe in him and I'll live forever?
So now we're agreeing on miracles but there's just not enough?
Why do you keep seeing things that just aren't there? Oh! Sorry, I forgot....that is what theists do isn't it? But to get back to your post...I agree on no such thing. I don't believe in 'miracles'. I was merely pointing out that out of hundreds of millions of people who have visited Lourdes and prayed for a cure for their affliction, the Catholic Church (not me) have acknowledged only 67 'unexplained events'. Please stop reading things that are not there.
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