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This is interesting, but I assure you that bilions have died in that past who have never heard of Christ or any religion for that matter. There are still places in the world today were there is no knowledge of Christianity, even with all of the modern devices we have.
Yes, God's creations are proof of His existence, but I don't agree that one can find Him through his creations.
Now this may be a philosophical question, but to what level does one have to be “exposed” to Jesus for it to count as that person’s chance? Let’s look at one of the most orthodox of Muslim nations – Saudi Arabia. Do most people in that country really have a chance to learn about Jesus Christ? I would submit to you that they do not. They may have heard the name, and even consider him a prophet, but their opportunities to really study his teachings are basically non-existent. Preaching Christianity there could be grounds for the death penalty.
Next, if such should occur today, I would listen and make up my own mind, but I sure as heck wouldn’t start shooting, beating, or denigrating the messengers.
I can't speak for what happened in the past and surely the loss of life regardless is terrible. No problems there. However, in Galatians 1:6-8; "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preaced to you, let him be accursed."
We had the gospel in its entirety already and well, you know the rest.
This is too funny you sound just like the pastor and some of the elders in the church when confronted about this. Just to let you know my dad was in HOT WATER for confiding in me. Then, when I got mad about the interest he got mad at me for questioning HIS church!!! I would say this doesn't pass the smell test because it "STINKS".
Hmm … you have thrown out some wild accusations that I, as a lifelong member, have never experienced. And so I’m giving my perspective that what you are accusing the Church of doesn’t fit official Church policy. I’m not trying to be critical, but the way you phrase things makes it clear you don’t have much understanding of the LDS church, so I look at what you say with a skeptical eye. You seem to want to cast everything in an unfavorable and conspiratorial light. That’s how you see things – for whatever reason – past history, current Christian beliefs, family issues or whatever. But it does not mesh with my personal experience, so you better be sure that I’m not going to let you just have pass when you write something that seems blatantly against actual reality.
You will note that I didn’t touch the family issues you brought up. Those are your issues, and I am in no position to judge whether those really happened or not. But I am in a position to speak out on what I have experience with, so I will.
Your question is superb. I was faced with exactly the same scenario you pose. Like my mother, I was a Methodist when I heard the LDS message. I converted.
Next, if such should occur today, I would listen and make up my own mind, but I sure as heck wouldn’t start shooting, beating, or denigrating the messengers.
I agree with Serg....I would do the same. It's not that we're incapable of seeing "why" and "how"....but we disagree. We don't hold up the righteous of the Church to make others feel bad. We're telling you what we think. Others perceive it as a threat, or an insult. We can only try to tell you in our own way why we believe what we do.
Now this may be a philosophical question, but to what level does one have to be “exposed” to Jesus for it to count as that person’s chance? Let’s look at one of the most orthodox of Muslim nations – Saudi Arabia. Do most people in that country really have a chance to learn about Jesus Christ? I would submit to you that they do not. They may have heard the name, and even consider him a prophet, but their opportunities to really study his teachings are basically non-existent. Preaching Christianity there could be grounds for the death penalty.
You bring up an excellent point. How much indoctronation is sufficient? If God reveals Himself in His creations, how much information could we gleen from a coconut tree? If we heard the name Jesus, how much could we learn from just hearing the name? I would say that a huge dose of Christian principles would be necessary before one could be held accountable to the law.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creaton of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thought, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
You take it for what it is...you either agree with this or not. Remember, this is scripture, not human reasoning.
Well, the African American male issue regarding the Priesthood was in 1978, not in the last 20 years, and it had nothing to do with color or accommodating society. It was a matter of lineage. Men of equally dark color, who were not of African descent, were allowed to hold the Priesthood. As one example only, black skinned New Guinea native males were ordained to the Priesthood. Next, African American males were never prohibited from membership in the Church.
Since you brought it up again maybe you or others can explain these things to me. Okay, maybe they were not denied members but with this kind of thinking below what black person would want to come to the church.............
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)
John Taylor, President of the Church
“And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;...” Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304
Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th LDS President
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren—children of God—not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness. " The Way to Perfection, pages 101-102. http://www.barncow.com/curseofcain/
The Church has maintained that the 1978 revelation giving blacks the priesthood was not due to any form of public pressure but was simply God’s will that blacks should not be given the priesthood until 1978.
Consider the following events that directly proceeded the 1978 revelation:
Under President Jimmy Carter, Brigham Young University and possibly the LDS Church itself was in danger of losing their tax exempt status if they continued to discriminate against blacks.
Members and missionaries the world over were embarrassed and ashamed at what the church taught in Sunday School about blacks. The members were not racist and did not like believing in and teaching racist doctrine.
The Church was becoming a global church. How could they possibly succeed in Africa and countries with large black populations?
Can any of you tell me if this is how the Book of Mormon reads......
Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. (Joe Smith calls dark skinned people ugly, filthy, lazy, and perverts.)
1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
3 Nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.
You can get angry or you can defend your beliefs. I have had many debates with people questioning my faith and I have held stead fast on my Christian beliefs and if you believe in your church then you need to do the same and not feel you are under attack.
A good Christian will defend not cover up the actions of the church!!! If these actions in any way are false every church needs to be called upon. For most they act like bringing blacks into priesthood since 1978 was a long time ago. Do you realize women were able to vote before blacks were excepted in your church?
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creaton of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thought, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
You take it for what it is...you either agree with this or not. Remember, this is scripture, not human reasoning.
Are you saying that even if I never heard of God, I should know about God? Is that what you are saying the above verse means?
If we believe it takes people to spread the word then aren't we denying God's ability to do all?
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