Mormons Made Simple - learn about and discuss all aspects of Mormonism. (door-to-door, mythology)

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by sanspeur

1. Yes, but isn't it true that if a parishioner is short of their tithes they are hauled before the bishop to explain why?

Did I misread this?...D&C 89: 5-13
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10. So the church has redefined hot drinks to just tea and coffee....How about green tea? Very healthy stuff.

1. No, nobody ever gets "hauled before the bishop" though his executive secretary could call a member and set up an appointment to meet with the bishop. It would not likely have anything to do with tithing though except at tithing settlement as I explained, and at a temple recommend interview in which case the member would be there of his/her own volition. (If a bishop was extending a leadership calling to someone he might ask them if they are living worthily, which would include paying tithing.)

My experience over the decades including leadership positions is that a member is never questioned about how much "tithing" they pay. "Tithing" is always 10% of one's annual increase. Which admittedly is not always easy to figure out if you have multiple sources of income or run one or more businesses. In which case you just do your best to get it right, maybe add a bit more just in case, and quite possibly pray about it to get a confirmation from the Spirit that you got it right.

But in my experience the bishop will most likely only ask for your personal declaration of whether or not you are a tithe payer, period.

6. Ok, now I understand what you are getting at, glad you're familiar with at least some of our canon. In Book of Mormon times it was not uncommon for enemies of the church to try to give members poisoned wine to drink. That's possibly a caution that enemies in the 1800's might try to poison the sacramental wine also. I think it likely that the revelation you cite was given prior to the time water was instituted for the sacrament instead of wine, and probably prior to the time the Word of Wisdom was accepted as a commandment. The church evolved over time as new procedures were needed to be addressed and the Lord was petitioned (e.g. what are deacons responsible for? what do seventies do. etc. The book of Doctrine and Covenants records much of that.)


10. Yes, coffee and tea. Some Mormons probably drink green tea and still believe they are keeping the Word of Wisdom. I did a bit of research for myself and found that green tea is from the same leaf as black tea, it's just not processed as much. So I personally don't drink green tea, but I wouldn't look down on another Mormon who thinks it's ok.

I appreciate your interest and enjoy the reasonably civil discussion we've been able to have at least so far in this thread on a topic that I know tends to come with a lot of erroneous ideas about us held by non-Mormons, and sometimes strong emotion.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Memphis1979

Mormons believe in magic underwear.

Who told you that? I'm pretty sure my underwear is no more magic than yours. And why this fascination with other people's underwear? I can't even imagine what kind of a person would care about the underwear of someone he doesn't even know.

Mormons believe that Jesus will return to Missouri, not Jerusalem.

And why is that a problem? Does it really matter where He returns?

Mormons believe that there are levels in heaven. (this answers holes in the Christian story, but still)

That's right. We absolutely do, and yes, it certainly does help explain the dilemma of how a loving Father in Heaven could condemn millions who had never heard of His Son, Jesus Christ, to an eternity in Hell.

Mormons believe you can baptize the dead (so how does this work, if they didn't do it of their own free will)

If a person does not accept the baptism done on his behalf, it's as if it never happened. No one will be forced to be a Mormon against his will, and if you think otherwise, you need to ask yourself what kind of power you really believe a Mormon baptism to have.

Mormons expect mandatory tithing.

Do you want to try rephrasing this? Your statement almost sounds as if a non-tithe-paying Latter-day Saint gets thrown into prison or something.

Mormons believe you should have no pleasures in life. No coffee, no tobacoo, no drugs, etc.

Our greatest pleasure is having a life-expectancy that is significantly longer than the average American due to our health code.

Mormons believe that when you die, you go to spirit paradise, or spirit prison waiting for the second coming.

Yeah, so did the earliest Christians.

But probably what pisses me off to no end is what they did to a girl I knew once.

She and I dated for a little bit, she wanted me to convert to Mormonisim, but I didn't buy into it. She wanted to be married in the Temple, and of course I couldn't get into the temple unless I was Mormon. Anyway, before her and I dated, she had sex with another guy. She loved him, he told her that he loved her. They dated for a long time, but in the end he left her. So she confessed her sin to the chuch and then THEY FREAKIN BANNED HER FROM CHURCH!!!!

Freakin' unbelievable!

I couldn't believe it. How is one supposed to make up for their sin if they are banned from Church. This wasn't a short ban either, it was like 2 years. She was devistated, we were freinds at this point, but still I felt bad for her. I tried to console her by telling her that her leaders were wrong, because Christ himself said "judge not, lest ye be judged".

I'm sorry, but you don't have all the facts. First off, what do you mean by "banned"? Forbidden to step foot in an LDS Church? Forbidden to hold any Church callings? Forbidden to get a temple recommend? And FYI, nobody is "banned" for a set period of time. It simply doesn't work that way, regardless of what you mean by the word "banned."

Pitiful excuse for a religion. Anyone with a brain can see that Joseph Smith was a guy just making up crap as he went along.

And yet nearly 14 million people in the world -- all of them with brains, and some of them highly intelligent -- see it differently. But to each his own.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Memphis1979

Do you really believe that God was a man on another planet?

I have no idea.

Do you believe he has a wife?

Yes. I believe He has an eternal companion, a female counterpart, our Mother in Heaven.

Do you believe that Jesus had a wife and/or multiple wives and children?

I have no idea. Would it have been a sin if He had married?

Do you believe that Jesus is the brother of Satan?

They were both spirit offspring of the same Father. Male offspring of the same Father are brothers. It appears as if you see this as problematic? Why?

Do you believe that we are all the spiritual children of God, therefore we are all brothers of Jesus and Satan?

Yes, with this qualification: When Satan was cast out of Heaven for rebellion, he lost his right to be known as one of God's sons ever again, so the relationship that once existed no longer existed and can never exist again.

Do you believe that you will be a God on your own planet?

I don't know. I believe that with God, nothing is impossible. I suppose He could even make you a God on your own planet if He felt like it.

Do you believe your temple garments (aka magic underwear) can protect you from bullets?

Oh, absolutely! They also protect us from getting in automobile accidents, from getting cancer, from having heart attacks, from having children with birth defects, etc. etc. etc. We don't even bleed when we get cut. Oh yeah... and we live forever.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by kek1993

I think that the Church of Latter Day Saints is for the most part, same as most other organized religons, for the most part, serve an important place in society. The family values are commendable.

Thank you.

The PROBLEM I have with the LDS church is the ego-centrism they have regarding their religon as being the ONLY true church, and having missionaries going out to convert people to their religon. It reminds me of priests converting indians.

I can appreciate how our this must seem to you. My question to you, though, is this: If two churches are teachings contradictory doctrines, how can they both be true? If 30,000 different Christian denominations are all teaching a variety of different doctrines, with no two of them agreeing on all points, how can they all be equally true? We actually believe that most churches contain much that is true. Furthermore, we believe that we are to embrace truth wherever it may be found, whether it is found in our religion or any other.

The other PROBLEM I have is the baptism of the dead. My Grandfather was Irish-Catholic, as Irish as you can get, loved his whiskey, loved his church, lived hard, died with a priest at his side. Then, someone turned around, and baptised him Mormon, after he died. It was explained to me that unless he was Mormon, he could not get into heaven. So, no one goes to heaven, unless they are Mormon? Ghandi is just in the waiting room up there? With Mother Theresa? Until someone baptises them Mormon?

Well, whoever explained it to you did a pretty poor job. The subject of proxy baptism almost deserves a thread of its own, but briefly... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints probably has the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell of any Christian denomination in the world. With the exception of a very, very few individuals, we believe pretty much everyone who has ever lived will end up in Heaven. I know of millions of non-LDS Christians who are pretty much convinced that Gandhi, at least, stands a very good chance of being God's eternal firewood. Now what kind of a "Christian" God would condemn a man like Gandhi to Hell for eternity? Certainly not the God I believe in. Oh, and by the way, don't worry about your Irish-Catholic grandfather. If he didn't like the idea of having been baptized by proxy, all he had to do was say, "Thanks but no thanks." Simple as that.

And I think that they should stay out of politics, in regards to Gay Marriage.

I agree.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Memphis1979

So Tithing "settlement" is ok. If you don't tithe, then you have to go to church and hope for a settlement.

Tithing Settlement is strictly an annual five or ten-minute meeting each member has with the bishop to "settle the books" so to speak. When you stop to consider the fact that most practicing members pay on their gross income, the amount of a person's contribution can be fairly sizable. When a member goes to tithing settlement, it's for the purpose of making sure that all of his contributions for the year have been accounted for correctly (which is a good thing to know when claiming them as a deduction at income tax time). Likewise, the Church needs to know that its records are correct. It's not a time to negotiate some kind of a deal or anything like that. Long ago, when I was not paying tithing, I simply skipped tithing settlement. No big deal. The bishop knew I was working and bringing in an income, but not paying my tithing. I wasn't chastised, shunned, publically or privately raked over the coals or anything else. Once I started paying my tithing again, I started going to tithing settlement each year when it came around.

[Sizzly Friddle]

YSM, please go away! Justamere is trying to have a discussion about his faith, not yours. You are really insulting.
I think there are only 3 other people on this planet who share your view of christianity. As has already been suggested, why don't you start your own thread so people can ask you questions about your beliefs?

It's bad enough that people seem obsessed about the magic underwear (snicker).

[sanspeur]

The church needs to keep it's tithing records correct? The mormon church is more of a business than a church. Their estimated income just from it's members tithes, and donations is estimated in excess of at least 4.3 billion a year. (It does not disclose it's finances) On top of that, the church is involved in many other business enterprises that bring in many millions more. The church invests several hundred million more dollars in real estate and securities.

To be fair some of those funds are spent on relief aid to victims of natural disasters such as earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes and others around the world. The relief effort has been recognized through many organizations and political leaders, including the United States leaders in reaction to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort by the church.

Here is what a few ex-Mormons have to say about the tithing settlement...I certainly would resent this procedure.

Mormon Tithing Settlement

[sanspeur]

YSM...If you do not have questions about the Mormon faith, why are you here? We are not interested in your negativity, or your bible spam.

[sanspeur]

YSM...You have been asked nicely to stay on topic....Please have a little respect for other's beliefs and stop trying to derail this thread.

[Memphis1979]

Originally Posted by justamere10

It always amazes me at how naive some people are to think they will learn the truth about a church by studying at the sites of that church's apostates and enemies. If you want to learn about the Baptists, wouldn't it be better to ask an active Baptist, or study from official Baptist media? Or Catholics from Catholics, Pentecostals from themselves, Mormons from real Mormons etc.?

"Tithing settlement" is an annual tradition towards the end of the year when church members have an opportunity to voluntarily meet in private with their bishop or branch president and there check over their financial donations made for that year to see if they are credited correctly, and declare to the bishop if that constitutes a full tithing or not. There is no compulsion of any kind.

Yes, I think when missionaries are teaching investigators they ask them to live the basic commandments and expectations of faithful members and that would include keeping the word of wisdom, attending church, and paying tithing. If they can't keep those basic commandments they are obviously not good candidates for membership in the church which comes with not only spiritual and social benefits but also in some cases financial help as well.

Just like a political argument. You can't understand the downside of a thing, unless you give the opposition a chance to speak.