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Two of my questions that I don't think you answered.
4...Mormons believe that everyone on earth now was a spirit in the pre-existence. When we die, our spirits are separated from our bodies and if we were good they go to “spirit paradise.” If we were bad they go to “spirit prison.”....Are there other levels or places besides these two?
5...Thomas S. Monson is the president and prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is it true, or do you believe that anything that the prophet says in official capacity is considered official canon?
Only Mormons go to the top heaven, everyone else goes to the 2nd heaven. Of course, once you are "baptised" dead then you can move up to the top heaven. The top heaven is only for Mormons, and in that top heaven men can have as many wives as they want, but women can only have one husband.
I'm not sure if you are trying to deceive board members into thinking that you are LDS or if you just have a different understanding of those matters than I do. Please identify yourself to that regard so there's no deceit or confusion, thanks.
It is my understanding that everyone has the potential for eternal progression, and to live in the celestial kingdom with God the Father forever, not just those who became Latter-day Saints. If it was only Mormons who went there that would exclude Christ's apostles, all the early saints, and even Abraham and other Old Testament prophets and patriarchs.
We do however believe that certain earthly ordinances such as baptism are necessary (at least since the Lord's mortal ministry) but that God has provided a way for those ordinances to be taken care of by proxy in earthly temples. Much of that work will take place throughout the Millennium when this earth will be dotted with temples and the dead will be able to appear in those temples, identify themselves, and request that their essential ordinance work be done by mortals standing as proxy for them.
Don't even get started on the more than one wife in heaven thing, I love the one I've got enough to satisfy me and I doubt that any other would want me anyway.
Last edited by justamere10; 10-05-2009 at 10:12 PM..
Two of my questions that I don't think you answered.
4...Mormons believe that everyone on earth now was a spirit in the pre-existence. When we die, our spirits are separated from our bodies and if we were good they go to “spirit paradise.” If we were bad they go to “spirit prison.”....Are there other levels or places besides these two?
That would be more or less correct. Keep in mind that both of these are more accurately described as states of mind than as places. The righteous (regardless of religion) will find themselves in a state of peace and rest while the wicked will be in a state of emotional torment and anguish. It is possible for one to be released from the spirit prison through repentance and acceptance of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Every human being will exist in the spirit world (i.e. paradise or prison) until the resurrection, at which time their spirits will be reunited with their newly perfected, immortal body and they will stand before God to be judged.
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5...Thomas S. Monson is the president and prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is it true, or do you believe that anything that the prophet says in official capacity is considered official canon?
More or less. We believe that he alone holds all of the keys of authority which entitle him to receive revelation for the Church as a whole. If God were to reveal something to him, he would present that revelation to the Quorum of the Twelve. They would individually and collectively fast and pray for confirmation that this new doctrine was, in fact, God's word. It would then be presented to the Church as a whole. So it's not as if President Monson alone can simply make a statement and declare new doctrine. Almost any time you hear him speak, it is to proclaim existing doctrine, to clarify its meaning and to emphasize its importance. The "official canon" is the body of scripture comprised of our four "Standard Works" (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price). For the most part, anything President Monson or any of the General Authorities say can be considered to be commentary on the teachings found in the canon.
Only Mormons go to the top heaven, everyone else goes to the 2nd heaven.
As any Mormon who knows his religion will tell you, that's a gross oversimplification of our doctrine. Still, it sure sounds to me as if non-Mormons will get a better deal according to LDS doctrine than Mormons will get according to traditional Christian doctrine. (By the way, you forgot the "3rd Heaven.)
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Of course, once you are "baptised" dead then you can move up to the top heaven.
That's absolutely false. By the time the Last Judgment comes and people are granted entrance to Heaven, there will be no more proxy baptisms and no "moving up."
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The top heaven is only for Mormons, and in that top heaven men can have as many wives as they want, but women can only have one husband.
Where do you come up with this nonsense? We believe that plural marriage is an eternal doctrine, but your interpretation of what that means is highly imaginative, to say the least.
The Lord has made known that fornication and adultery are the second most serious of all sins, right next to murder. So she got herself into some pretty deep doo doo as far as a church concerned with moral behavior and helping their flock get to heaven is concerned. The maximum penalty any church in the USA can dish out is excommunication, removal from the records of the church.
Interestingly, the very mormons who would make such a statement as "The Lord has made known that fornication and adultery are the second most serious of all sins, right next to murder" also believe firmly that their prophet Joseph Smith did not fornicate nor commit adultery when he married over 30 wives, including the wives of other, living mormon men and teenage girls as young as 14 years old.
So, Joseph Smith can outright marry all these women and it's OK, but memphis' friend who slept with a man before marriage is subject to "disciplinary courts".
Yep, typical mormons...
Last edited by BergenCountyJohnny; 10-05-2009 at 11:07 PM..
Interestingly, the very mormons who would make such a statement as "The Lord has made known that fornication and adultery are the second most serious of all sins, right next to murder" also believe firmly that their prophet Joseph Smith did not fornicate nor commit adultery when he married over 30 wives, including the wives of other, living mormon men and teenage girls as young as 14 years old.
So, Joseph Smith can outright marry all these women and it's OK, but memphis' friend who slept with a man before marriage is subject to "disciplinary courts".
Yep, typical mormons...
They are trying to re-write their history, leaving out the fact that Joeseph Smith was a polygamist, marrying little girls.
What do we call religous leaders and their followers who sleep with little girls today?
Oh yeah, a cult.
Afterward, he told me I could see the manuscript but by this time the family situation had become so delicate that I felt that I would rather not take advantage of my uncle's name to use this material. I wrote to him saying I would not ask for any more material and I never went back to the church library. So, technically, I was given access, but I didn't use it. It was made very clear to me that it was an extremely difficult family situation, so that is the way I handled it. http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php
And here's what happened to Leonard J. Arrington after this interview was conducted:
"The Church transferred his History Division to BYU in 1982, bringing the era of open Church Archives to a close. Working in a new Brigham Young University division, the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute for Church History, brought Arrington into a more static situation, as he no longer divided his time between Church Headquarters and BYU. In February 1982, he was privately released as Church Historian and director of the History Division. These positions were assumed by the Historical Department's Managing Director G. Homer Durham, who was also a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy. At the April 1982 General Conference, the change was not formally announced and Arrington did not receive the traditional vote of thanks for his service." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_J._Arrington
They open them up and then when the "true history" - as opposed to white washed "faithful history" - starts flowing from Anti-Mormon and truthful Mormon Historians they lock it back up.
This has been going on for years. As Mormon Historian Carmon Hardy observed:
"It was while doing research in preparation for a book on polygamy, especially post-Manifesto polygamy, that I encountered extensive resorts to purposeful mistruth by Mormon leaders and others. I will suggest that such practices have serious Implications beyond the particular instances involving their employment. This was certainly the case, I believe, when dishonesty was used to defend polygamy." http://www.mormonalliance.org/.../v3p4c21.htm
And the precedent for this type of behavior began with (drum roll please) Joseph Smith - see link. http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php
This is a good one to, just shows they've been rewriting their history since at least 1852
Interestingly, the very mormons who would make such a statement as "The Lord has made known that fornication and adultery are the second most serious of all sins, right next to murder" also believe firmly that their prophet Joseph Smith did not fornicate nor commit adultery when he married over 30 wives, including the wives of other, living mormon men and teenage girls as young as 14 years old.
So, Joseph Smith can outright marry all these women and it's OK, but memphis' friend who slept with a man before marriage is subject to "disciplinary courts". Yep, typical mormons...
It is my opinion that you would have more credibility if you got your 'facts' right. Those who have been following this thread will be aware that Mindy was not excommunicated.
There are a lot of accusations against Joseph Smith that are groundless and completely refuted, especially those concerning eternal marriage. Critics of the church often make use of presentism, discussing events in ancient or in this case frontier times and making conclusions and judgments as if culture and environment was the same then as it is today. For example, in the early 1800's life was so short compared to today that marriage at age 14 was common. A boy was considered to be a man at that age. Only in modern times has there been the luxury in some countries of teenage years such as they are known in USA society today.
But if you'd like to ask one or more specific questions instead of just making dubious statements I'd be pleased to respond to them. It appears that you are painting with such a broad brush in the message I am responding to that you'd probably also condemn most of the ancient prophets and patriarchs many of whom were known to have lived the law of plural marrage. The LDS Church abandoned the practice of a man having more than one wife at the same time about 1890 when the U.S. government threatened to send the army to invade Utah Territory and confiscate church property if they did not do so.
"And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel. Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?" Alma 39: 3-5
The 13,500,000 member worldwide Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of course is not a cult anymore than is any other Christian denomination. But it seems fashionable among anti-Mormons (even on this board) to hurl the word at us as if that might help their cause somehow. So I thought in addition to the recent words of Dan Brown posted above that it might be appropriate for me to comment a bit more on the use of the label "cult" as it pertains to the LDS Church.
Orson Scott Card, author of "Enders Game" and dozens of other best-selling books, writes an interesting and entertaining commentary on cults versus legitimate churches. You can read it on Beliefnet:
Jeff Lindsay writes a lengthy article on the subject. Here are a couple of extracts:
"But recently, contrary to its original generic meaning, the word "cult" in popular use carries frightening overtones. It evokes images of suicidal, comet-chasing groups, physically abusive regimens, corrupt tyrants and Satanic rituals. Clearly there are some odd beliefs and groups in the world - but every religion can seem odd or even extreme to those who do not understand it.
The problem is that any general definition of "cult" in the negative, frightening sense is likely to include many presumably "decent" religions, including early Christianity, which was also denounced as a "sect" and a "cult" by its critics. In my opinion, the "Mormon Cult" is much like the "Christian Cult" from 2000 years ago. Misunderstood, controversial, but nothing to fear."
....Afterward, he told me I could see the manuscript but by this time the family situation had become so delicate that I felt that I would rather not take advantage of my uncle's name to use this material. I wrote to him saying I would not ask for any more material and I never went back to the church library. So, technically, I was given access, but I didn't use it. It was made very clear to me that it was an extremely difficult family situation, so that is the way I handled it.
Your quote is of course from the usual biased unreliable source. This time from a "ministry" organized specifically to convert those evil Mormons over to someone else's notion of what certain verses of the bible mean. The front page has the usual 'kind' commentary such as a story titled "LDS missionaries stoop to thievery." And of course your website also conveniently has a large online store (surprise surprise) where you can order anti-Mormon materials online in just about any format you care to indulge in and are willing to pay for. It's just gotta be a lucrative industry, churning out, marketing, and selling scurrilous anti-Mormon media in the guise of doing 'Christian' service...
I guess I'll never cease to be amazed at how the paid pastors of some specific Christian denominations seem to think they can build themselves up not by telling others about the good news Jesus brings, but by deceiving their flock into believing that certain other flocks who follow Jesus Christ but do not believe exactly as those pastors teach are evil. After all, if members of their flock started to leave for other denominations those professional paid pastors, sincere and Christlike as they may present themselves and maybe think they are, could feel that their status and living was threatened.
Oh well, gotta love them too....
Last edited by justamere10; 10-06-2009 at 08:38 AM..
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