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It's true that society's ideas of right and wrong are gradually changing but you really can't deny that there are certainly different categories of what we view as sin and there always have been because certain acts are just worse than others. Stealing a loaf of bread is always going to be a lesser offense than killing a child. My whole point is that the one punishment fits all sinners is obviously unjust. I would be put into the same category as Josef Stalin who probably killed more people than Hitler and spread fear and misery all over the Soviet Union for a very long time. My crime of not believing that God exists seems pretty tame in comparison to what Stalin did. If there really is a God who's will is to torture all sinners for eternity regardless of what kind of lives they led then the Bible needs to be rewritten and the parts about a loving and merciful God need to be removed.
Mg, I just don't think we know what hell will be like, but again I can tell you that I believe certain scriptures definitely indicate there will be varying degrees of punishment. There is one I'm remembering that speaks figuratively of someone "being beaten with few stripes" vs. "being beaten with many stripes. Again I say, just accept Christ and let hell be God's problem rather than your problem.
Again I say, just accept Christ and let hell be God's problem rather than your problem.
Thanks for your thoughts. If I do turn out to be wrong about my atheism I think maybe twenty hours of community service would be an appropriate punishment.
Again I say, just accept Christ and let hell be God's problem rather than your problem.
Ahh, but the problem with that problem, is that then one would still have to worry about loved ones, friends, etc., who weren't smart enough to do the same. So, hell is still your problem. But, no worries, when you get to heaven, you'll either be holy enough to be accepting of God's plan, or he'll wipe the memories of all those other people from your mind. Which means you aren't going to be quite the same person, but hey, the main "problem" has been taken care of. You made it to heaven, even if the rest of them didn't.
Yes, I know that was quite sarcastic. Honestly, I don't mean that in an ugly way, on a personal level, Kaykay. I'm sure you mean well. And, I know that most Christians do worry about, and pray for, their friends and loved ones, because they earnestly believe in hell. But, HELL is the main reason why I walked out of the church. I'm not going to get into a major Biblical argument, pulling out evey scripture I can find, (it would take too long, and most of the Christian folks on this forum would not accept it, anyway, which is why I don't bring this up in my "real" life, with anyone, either), but after spending alot of time thinking, reading, studying, and praying, I do not accept the concept of hell, in the traditional sense that most Christians believe in. When I stepped back, and took a good, long, hard, honest look at what I had believed, (or tried to believe), I realized it didn't make sense to me. I'm not saying I don't believe in God; I do. But, I do not believe that one can go around stating that "God is Love", (think about that), and then state, that because some people are too stupid, too stubborn, or too questioning, or in the wrong part of the world, (i.e. wrong place, wrong time), and don't accept Christ, in this life, that they are headed for hell. As though death was such a barrier that God cannot, and will not, cross it. Frankly, I believe that our Creator has more sense than that.
There is a place in the bible that would make you think that if I remember correctly but then there is a verse that points out certain sins that are worse, something like vanity, hypocracy, I don't remember exactly.
Ahh, but the problem with that problem, is that then one would still have to worry about loved ones, friends, etc., who weren't smart enough to do the same. So, hell is still your problem. But, no worries, when you get to heaven, you'll either be holy enough to be accepting of God's plan, or he'll wipe the memories of all those other people from your mind. Which means you aren't going to be quite the same person, but hey, the main "problem" has been taken care of. You made it to heaven, even if the rest of them didn't.
Yes, I know that was quite sarcastic. Honestly, I don't mean that in an ugly way, on a personal level, Kaykay. I'm sure you mean well. And, I know that most Christians do worry about, and pray for, their friends and loved ones, because they earnestly believe in hell. But, HELL is the main reason why I walked out of the church. I'm not going to get into a major Biblical argument, pulling out evey scripture I can find, (it would take too long, and most of the Christian folks on this forum would not accept it, anyway, which is why I don't bring this up in my "real" life, with anyone, either), but after spending alot of time thinking, reading, studying, and praying, I do not accept the concept of hell, in the traditional sense that most Christians believe in. When I stepped back, and took a good, long, hard, honest look at what I had believed, (or tried to believe), I realized it didn't make sense to me. I'm not saying I don't believe in God; I do. But, I do not believe that one can go around stating that "God is Love", (think about that), and then state, that because some people are too stupid, too stubborn, or too questioning, or in the wrong part of the world, (i.e. wrong place, wrong time), and don't accept Christ, in this life, that they are headed for hell. As though death was such a barrier that God cannot, and will not, cross it. Frankly, I believe that our Creator has more sense than that.
Regarding my remark to MontanaGuy, that's why you have to watch out for the written word because sometimes the intent is not clear. I shouldn't have been glib about it, but MG and I have chatted on the religion forum and others have with him as well. So I think HE knows but maybe it was unclear that I was just giving him a little gentle ribbing and teasing about accepting Christ. Not that I wouldn't really like him to do it.... Again, I probably shouldn't have been so glib about such a serious topic because it might be misunderstood.
Really though I guess I might add though that I do seriously believe that there is some wisdom in just "allowing God to be God" so to speak regarding what happens after death. Now I am not saying that we shouldn't take it seriously on a personal level or about other people. God Forbid!!! I guess what I am saying is the never ending questions about "what about those that have never heard the gospel" etc. There is a scripture where Abraham says to or about God, something like "Shall not the judge of all the earth judge rightly?" And I think He does...and He will. Judging the "fairness: of God is what I guess I really mean by "letting Hell be God's problem." Leaving the "equity" of the whole thing in God's hands so to speak. Am I making any sense?
But, I do admit, CelticLady, that hell is a concept which many people struggle with. I do understand your issue. I think that is why many apologetic books address this....
There is a place in the bible that would make you think that if I remember correctly but then there is a verse that points out certain sins that are worse, something like vanity, hypocracy, I don't remember exactly.
I can't remember exactly where that is either, Lisa, but I think you are remembering in Psalms, maybe where it talks about several things that God says He hates.
I can't remember exactly where that is either, Lisa, but I think you are remembering in Psalms, maybe where it talks about several things that God says He hates.
Are you thinking of Proverbs 6: 16-19 "There are six things the Lord hates, no seven things he detest, haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord among brothers".
Correction: this is Proverbs not Psalms like I first said.
Last edited by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA; 05-18-2007 at 06:43 PM..
Are you thinking of Psalms 6: 16-19 "There are six things the Lord hates, no seven things he detest, haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord among brothers".
I can't speak for Lisa, but yes, that's the one I'm referring to. Thanks, ILNC
You've got to be kidding. I had to look up "haughty" because you don't hear it too often, it says arrogant or disdainful. It was right up there at the top of the list. I don't even know how to respond to something like this. So if someone gives you a haughty look are they worse than a serial killer? This is the kind of stuff that reminds me why I'm an atheist.
You've got to be kidding. I had to look up "haughty" because you don't hear it too often, it says arrogant or disdainful. It was right up there at the top of the list. I don't even know how to respond to something like this. So if someone gives you a haughty look are they worse than a serial killer? This is the kind of stuff that reminds me why I'm an atheist.
Of course not! This does not mean that someone who gives you a haughty look is worse than a serial killer, you've got to be kidding asking that. God is saying don't act like you are better than someone else. Romans 12:16 "Be of the same mind toward one another, do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation". Surely even an atheist would agree that being haughty toward someone is wrong.
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But, no worries, when you get to heaven, you'll either be holy enough to be accepting of God's plan, or he'll wipe the memories of all those other people from your mind. Which means you aren't going to be quite the same person, but hey, the main "problem" has been taken care of. You made it to heaven, even if the rest of them didn't.
Honestly, I don't mean that in an ugly way, on a personal level, Kaykay. I'm sure you mean well.
Again, I probably shouldn't have been so glib about such a serious topic because it might be misunderstood.
