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Surely even an atheist would agree that being haughty toward someone is wrong.
The point that I was trying to make is that the list of offensive behaviors seems to start off with one that seems very trivial. Haughty by it's definition seems to imply a sort of conceit or arrogance. You could probably pick out dozens of people who fall into this category in your own church. Why is this particular human trait being singled out when much more destructive human behavior is affecting many more people in much more destructive ways? I know I'd much rather face a haughty look than a firearm pointed in my face. Your logic escapes me.
Chances are, Montana, that most Christians would say that the haughty look is connected to pride, which, according to the Bible, was the downfall of Lucifer/Satan, and to the downfall of man, for that matter. And, pride is usually given as the reason why people reject Christ, i.e. they are too full of pride to admit that they are sinners in need of a saviour. At least, having been in the church all my life, (until I walked away, a few years ago), that's the argument I always heard.
The point that I was trying to make is that the list of offensive behaviors seems to start off with one that seems very trivial. Haughty by it's definition seems to imply a sort of conceit or arrogance. You could probably pick out dozens of people who fall into this category in your own church. Why is this particular human trait being singled out when much more destructive human behavior is affecting many more people in much more destructive ways? I know I'd much rather face a haughty look than a firearm pointed in my face. Your logic escapes me.
You could say the logic is if these smaller things offend God, how much more so do the bigger things offend Him? However, there is no big or small sin with God. All sin violates one single law, the law of love. If you violate this law on small count or large count, you've broken the law just the same.
And you're right, there probably are more than dozens of people who fall into this category in my church.
Chances are, Montana, that most Christians would say that the haughty look is connected to pride, which, according to the Bible, was the downfall of Lucifer/Satan, and to the downfall of man, for that matter. And, pride is usually given as the reason why people reject Christ, i.e. they are too full of pride to admit that they are sinners in need of a saviour. At least, having been in the church all my life, (until I walked away, a few years ago), that's the argument I always heard.
Yes, and I would also say that this scripture says that these are things God hates. It doesn't say these are an "exhaustive" list. I think it helps to bear in mind when we look at stuff like this, and really any other theological issue
that to get the true picture, that you have to look at what the "whole" body of scripture has to say about a subject. Hence, the term "taking something out of context."
I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA, Sorry if my remarks sounded a little argumentative yesterday. Sometimes the subject just gets me really irritated but then you probably feel the same way.
I do notice that there doesn't seem to be a clear agreement among believers as to whether or not there really is just one punishment for sinners. I find that there are so many passages that could be taken in a variety of ways and that could have something to do with the translations that have taken place or maybe cause the Bible has many different human authors who had different writing styles and probably differing beliefs as well. It's hard to say.
hey montanaguy, don't panic1 god does not punish tose who are undeserved. hell is not an actaul abode as many of us are led to believe, as He is not able to be that cruel. this would obviouslly damage His divine being. Hell is simply being without the presence of God for those who are not worthy. if you do not believe in God then this will not affect you as such if you choose not to believe in Heaven or Hell anyway. however all those who are loving and have lived a life which is deserved will enter the kingdom of god, simply meaning that after your life you will continue in the presence of the loving Lord
I'm asking this question because of a recent post I did and it got me to thinking about how God supposedly deals with sinners. In our justice system we have a punishment or sentence that is based on the crime that's been committed. A parking ticket gets a small fine, a drunk driver will get a much larger fine and possibly a little jail time, an armed robber will likely get a few years in prison and a murderer will possibly get a life sentence or even the death penalty in some cases. Ok, that all makes sense to me, the punishment fits the crime. However the Bible only describes two possible outcomes for my life, heaven or hell. As an atheist I've been told that I'll be getting a one way ticket to the lake of fire to suffer for eternity. My crime? I simply don't think that God exists. I'll be getting the exact punishment that Stalin and Hitler will get even though I've never hurt anyone in my life and I've tried to be a decent human being. Now we've all been told what a loving and merciful God we have and how he values each and every one of us and yet the Bible says I'll suffer more torment than the most depraved human being has ever inflicted on another human being. What kind of a God would do that and does this belief even make any sense?
I don't post often, so I am going to speak from my heart. I've pretty much read the entire thread to this point and I agree that there are scriptures that lead me to believe that there are different degrees of punishment.
Montana, your crime is not that you don't believe God exists. Your crime is the sin that you have committed since the day you were born. Read John 8:24, dieing in sin is what condemns a person to eternity in Hell. Trusting in Jesus is what removes the condemnation, so failure to believe and trust in Him does condemn a person to Hell but only because they have chosen to reject the payment made for them. You wrote about our justice system and how the punishment fits the crime. Suppose you have a major fine to pay and someone offers to pay it for you, but you say, "no thanks I'll pay my own fine". You will pay the fine even though someone offered to do it for you. That's what you do when you reject Jesus. Don't blame the One who offered to pay your fine for you, you chose to do it yourself! God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes (trust in, relies on) in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us!
My son died four years ago. He had a Bachelors degree in electrical engineering. He was making more money than I ever did. But then he lost his job. He moved home and started getting into trouble with the law. I found out too late that he had gotten into drugs. It finally killed him, he overdosed. Do you know what remorse is. I know. You think of all the things you should have said or done, it eats at you. Even after becoming a Christian and giving my life to Christ it still haunts me sometimes. I think that is how it will be in Hell. You will be eternally (For Ever!) separated from God. You will think back at all the times you heard the Gospel message and refused to listen or didn't care. It will eat at you, only it will never stop. The Bible speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hell will not be fun.
Well, I've said my piece. I encourage you to read the Gospel of John. God is love but He is also Holy and can not allow sin to enter His kingdom. Only a corrupt Judge would overlook a crime and the Bible says someone must pay. Jesus already has! Trust Him.
I can't believe that no one has even brought up Purgatory. There is Heaven, there is Hell and there is Purgatory, a place where reparation is due before entering into the kingdom of Heaven.
Think of it this way....if you live your life for Christ and die within a state of grace, you will be in Heaven with Him forever. If you, with full knowlege and consent, reject God and everything he stands for....not able to ever humble youself and ask and seek for God's presence to be shown to you....to be full of arrogance and self-aborbtion and pride...then, I think you might be choosing hell.
But, on the other hand, if like the vast majority of us, are not perfect and are in need of cleansing or purification in order to stand in the Presence of God....then Purgatory is the place for you.
In Purgatory, you are saved (not going to Hell, but eventually being in Heaven w/ God), but you will wait a certain amount of time (I know there's no space or time in heaven,....I'm just talking in terms here that we can realate to).
I can't believe that no one has even brought up Purgatory. There is Heaven, there is Hell and there is Purgatory, a place where reparation is due before entering into the kingdom of Heaven.
Think of it this way....if you live your life for Christ and die within a state of grace, you will be in Heaven with Him forever. If you, with full knowlege and consent, reject God and everything he stands for....not able to ever humble youself and ask and seek for God's presence to be shown to you....to be full of arrogance and self-aborbtion and pride...then, I think you might be choosing hell.
But, on the other hand, if like the vast majority of us, are not perfect and are in need of cleansing or purification in order to stand in the Presence of God....then Purgatory is the place for you.
In Purgatory, you are saved (not going to Hell, but eventually being in Heaven w/ God), but you will wait a certain amount of time (I know there's no space or time in heaven,....I'm just talking in terms here that we can realate to).
There is no purgatory, one is not almost washed. All sin separates us from God, if we die apart from God not abiding in His Son ie, being saved, we will never have the chance to undo what we should have done, by simply accepting His gift.
We are to die once and then are judged.
You either win or loose, you don't almost make it to heaven.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" - 1 Peter 3:18
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. - Hebrews 10:18
If we could simply burn in fire to cleanse us from sin, why then did Yeshua die? These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. - Revelation 7:14-17
We are washed in His blood, not burned by the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:15 is referring to our works being burned...not us.
MBG
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