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"So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened." - Exodus 32:14
And yes the bible says that Jesus Christ is the same....and my understanding of who He was is that He loved and forgave all, and that He sacrificed for all, not just Christians....so why wouldn't he find a way to save the rest of the world? That's assuming that what the bible says hasn't changed since then...again that was written a long time ago...I don't think it's bad for you to believe what is written is true, but I just don't think that means that nothing else is still possible.
I thought that was what you were referring to. God did not change His mind in the same way that a parent decides not to discipline a child. Instead God changed his behavior to remain consistent with His nature. When God wanted to destroy the people he was acting consistently with his justice. When Moses interceded for the people, God relented in order to act consistently with His mercy. God had often told the people that if they changed their ways He would not condemn them. They changed and God did as He promised.
Jesus did find a way to save the whole world when He died on the cross.
God did not change His mind in the same way that a parent decides not to discipline a child. Instead God changed his behavior to remain consistent with His nature.
But if you believe him to be merciful then why wouldn't changing his mind on saving the rest of the world be consistent with His nature? I know you think I have a Polyanna (sp?) view of God and the world...but I like it this way...it makes me happy.
"So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened." - Exodus 32:14
And yes the bible says that Jesus Christ is the same....and my understanding of who He was is that He loved and forgave all, and that He sacrificed for all, not just Christians....so why wouldn't he find a way to save the rest of the world? That's assuming that what the bible says hasn't changed since then...again that was written a long time ago...I don't think it's bad for you to believe what is written is true, but I just don't think that means that nothing else is still possible.
Well, I guess anything could be theoretically possible. But based on some things written in the book of revelation, it doesn't seem consistent with scripture to me to assume that there will be universal salvation.
Revelation 20:15 speaks of the fate of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, for example.
I would like to vote with YOU, Irishmom. You probably have a strong gift of mercy which is why you think this way! And frankly, I would like to think that too, but based on scripture, I think this scenario is very unlikely if not impossible.
Yes, there is a limit to God's grace. If we choose to make our own way and turn from God, his grace ends, we are turned over to our sins. But the good news is that it begins again as soon as we turn back to him and it will be there as long as we remain in him. And for those that remain in him, there is not limit to his grace.
Being a Christian is not easy. Christ was a suffering messiah and he asked us to follow him. The symbol of Christianity is cross. . . not a lazy-boy. Christ did not come to bless our lives, he came to change them. If you want a religion which will bless your life the way it is, you can have it, but Christ said count me out. That is what Mark 2:21,22 and Mark 3:1-6 are all about. The hearts of the Pharisees had become so rigid that they expected the Messiah to honor them and bless their lives. Christ said, no you got it all wrong. You have taken my word, taken my law and after all these years you have made it something it is not. Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, "The Sabath was made for man, not man for the Sabath. 28So the Son of Man id Lord even of the Sabbath." To put it simply, the rules God gave were made to protect and provide for man. Man was not made to justify the existence of the rules. If we choose to make our own way and turn from God, his grace ends, we are turned over to our sins. But the good news is that it begins again as soon as we turn back to him and it will be there as long as we remain in him.
Wow! Everything has pretty much been said already!
Quote:
Originally Posted by beth ann
I believe no one has assurance of salvation, Christian or not. We are not saved by faith alone. God's grace is necessary, and with God, all things are possible.
But, Beth...this is just not true! We ARE assured of salvation! It is OURS for the taking!. AND we ARE saved by God's GRACE! Saying you do not believe these things mean you do not believe in God or His deity!
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
1 Thessalonians 5:8-9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Timothy 3:15-16
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I'm sorry, but if you do not have assurance of your salvation, you really need to seek further and BE ASSURED!
If someone comes up and asks you:
"If you die TODAY will you go to Heaven?"...You should NOT have a problem with replying:
"YES YES YES, I know down in my HEART that I have been SAVED through the GRACE OF GOD and Jesus' sacrifice on the cross...I KNOW I AM GOING TO HEAVEN!"
But if you believe him to be merciful then why wouldn't changing his mind on saving the rest of the world be consistent with His nature? I know you think I have a Polyanna (sp?) view of God and the world...but I like it this way...it makes me happy.
I like your thinking! It goes with something I read a while back, "I found it impossible to believe that those living the way of Jesus were damned for not taking the name of Jesus". I don't know if you've ever heard of Christian Universalism, but the basic belief is that Jesus will indeed, save all, in his own time, and that the grave is not the dividing line. I find this to much more hopeful, and truly "Good News", than the usual "hell and damnation" beliefs of Christendom. It would be a bit lengthy to explain it more fully, but if you google it, you'll find some really good sites that explain it much more thoroughly than I could, both from a logical and a scriptural viewpoint, (it is sometimes called Universal Reconciliation or Inclusion). Universalists, (again Christian, not Unitarian. Two different things), believe that only Jesus saves, that only he is the way. They just believe that there is enough scripture to show that Jesus works on a different time-table. I think Christian people owe it to themselves to at least look at the possibility that God is more merciful than most of them believe. Being in the church through most of my life, I tried to believe in hell, I kind of believed in hell, and yet I didn't believe, because I had a major problem with reconciling God's Eternal Love with God's Eternal Wrath. After a number of months, (a few years ago), of studying Christian Universalism, I think God's Eternal Love is a better fit. Your average Christian will state that believing that Jesus will save all is heresy. *Insert a big shrug, here.* Frankly, I believe in giving our Creator more credit than that. Just something to think about.
Well, ok, I googled some various websites about Christian universalism, and they make some good points. It's certainly a comfortable line of reasoning and doctirine. But, frankly, I just don't think it lines up Biblically with what the whole of scripture teaches. There are also other websites that would dispute some of their interpretations about words that are used in the Greek or at least the way they use them to formulate the doctrine of universalism.
In short, I understand, CelticLady1, why this doctrine is attractive, but I again, I just don't think it is consistent with the WHOLE of scripture.
I feel odd here arguing "for" hell. I HATE the concept of hell!! But I do think scripture does not teach a "second chance after death" doctrine so to speak.
I like your thinking! It goes with something I read a while back, "I found it impossible to believe that those living the way of Jesus were damned for not taking the name of Jesus". I don't know if you've ever heard of Christian Universalism, but the basic belief is that Jesus will indeed, save all, in his own time, and that the grave is not the dividing line. I find this to much more hopeful, and truly "Good News", than the usual "hell and damnation" beliefs of Christendom. It would be a bit lengthy to explain it more fully, but if you google it, you'll find some really good sites that explain it much more thoroughly than I could, both from a logical and a scriptural viewpoint, (it is sometimes called Universal Reconciliation or Inclusion). Universalists, (again Christian, not Unitarian. Two different things), believe that only Jesus saves, that only he is the way. They just believe that there is enough scripture to show that Jesus works on a different time-table. I think Christian people owe it to themselves to at least look at the possibility that God is more merciful than most of them believe. Being in the church through most of my life, I tried to believe in hell, I kind of believed in hell, and yet I didn't believe, because I had a major problem with reconciling God's Eternal Love with God's Eternal Wrath. After a number of months, (a few years ago), of studying Christian Universalism, I think God's Eternal Love is a better fit. Your average Christian will state that believing that Jesus will save all is heresy. *Insert a big shrug, here.* Frankly, I believe in giving our Creator more credit than that. Just something to think about.
I guess I'm your average Christian. Jesus said He is the only way to Heaven and He also said road to hell is wide and broad and many would find, but the road to Heaven is narrow and few will find it. So if what you're saying is true that ALL will be saved the Jesus is a lier and none of the Bible is true.
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But based on some things written in the book of revelation, it doesn't seem consistent with scripture to me to assume that there will be universal salvation.
....I love it!
Christian Universalism??
