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thank you!! Was looking for that song and for the life of me couldnt think of it!(Ancient Of Days) It was driving me crazy. Almost to the point of having to take a three day weekend....
1 Timothy 2:3-6: "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." There are basically three ways this passage can be interpreted:
1. The Arminian-God desires all people to be saved. He gave His only Begotten Son to save everyone. But He can't save anyone except those who are willing to be saved.
2. The Calvinist-God has two wills that "appear" to contra¬dict each other-His revealed will and His secret will. Even though His expressed will is for all people to be saved, He really doesn't want anyone to be saved except for the elect whom He chose before the foundation of the world, and whom He effectually calls to Himself. They call this "apparent" contradiction a paradox or an antinomy. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. In other words, if it looks like a contradiction and sounds like a contradiction, it probably is.
3. The Universalist-God wants all men to be saved. He sent Jesus to die for all men. God is sovereign. Therefore all will eventually be saved.
I have heard and read each of these views from those who hold them. Which one sounds most plausible?
I have heard and read each of these views from those who hold them. Which one sounds most plausible?
The right one.
The one that harmonizes with the scriptures.
The one that validates what the Book of John teaches, that only those who receive and believe in the name of Jesus can be called Children of God. And yes, ALL of God's children will be saved. But what you fail to do, Jeff, is recognize that some refuse to be called Children of God.
By the way, I thought we were going to leave this thread alone.
1 Timothy 2:3-6: "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." There are basically three ways this passage can be interpreted:
1. The Arminian-God desires all people to be saved. He gave His only Begotten Son to save everyone. But He can't save anyone except those who are willing to be saved.
2. The Calvinist-God has two wills that "appear" to contra¬dict each other-His revealed will and His secret will. Even though His expressed will is for all people to be saved, He really doesn't want anyone to be saved except for the elect whom He chose before the foundation of the world, and whom He effectually calls to Himself. They call this "apparent" contradiction a paradox or an antinomy. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. In other words, if it looks like a contradiction and sounds like a contradiction, it probably is.
3. The Universalist-God wants all men to be saved. He sent Jesus to die for all men. God is sovereign. Therefore all will eventually be saved.
I have heard and read each of these views from those who hold them. Which one sounds most plausible?
I would love to say that Universalist, I really would, I dont want ANY one to die and not be saved, but for me, I just cant put what the Bible says into that, as much as Id love too. Example maybe bad but an example.....Two men in a life raft, out at sea, a navy helicopter comes by, one says yes take me, save me, the other refuses the helicopter ride to safety and dies. Was it the helicopter pilots fault the guy refused to be rescued? Thats the way I see What Jesus did, yes he died for ALL men, but not all will accept it.
I would love to say that Universalist, I really would, I dont want ANY one to die and not be saved, but for me, I just cant put what the Bible says into that, as much as Id love too. Example maybe bad but an example.....Two men in a life raft, out at sea, a navy helicopter comes by, one says yes take me, save me, the other refuses the helicopter ride to safety and dies. Was it the helicopter pilots fault the guy refused to be rescued? Thats the way I see What Jesus did, yes he died for ALL men, but not all will accept it.
I agree with you. I don't want anyone to go to hell, but I believe the Bible teaches that people will who reject Jesus, because ALL will not accept and He did die for EVERYONE and there are no second chances.
I would love to say that Universalist, I really would, I dont want ANY one to die and not be saved, but for me, I just cant put what the Bible says into that, as much as Id love too. Example maybe bad but an example.....Two men in a life raft, out at sea, a navy helicopter comes by, one says yes take me, save me, the other refuses the helicopter ride to safety and dies. Was it the helicopter pilots fault the guy refused to be rescued? Thats the way I see What Jesus did, yes he died for ALL men, but not all will accept it.
But why would anyone, if in the exact situation given above, refuse the helicopter ride? We are talking about a failure to believe something unseen, and as a result "choosing" an eternity in torture. Is that really a choice? When the result is something as serious as spending an eternity being tortured, shouldn't the "choice" be made as obvious as the rescue helicopter mentioned above?
The one that validates what the Book of John teaches, that only those who receive and believe in the name of Jesus can be called Children of God. And yes, ALL of God's children will be saved. But what you fail to do, Jeff, is recognize that some refuse to be called Children of God.
By the way, I thought we were going to leave this thread alone.
But verse after verse states that every knee will bow, every tongue confess, all will bow in worship...it doesn't say just "God's children". If people are just bowing outwardly out of fear or awe while their hearts remain unbowed, that doesn't glorify God.
But why would anyone, if in the exact situation given above, refuse the helicopter ride? We are talking about a failure to believe something unseen, and as a result "choosing" an eternity in torture. Is that really a choice? When the result is something as serious as spending an eternity being tortured, shouldn't the "choice" be made as obvious as the rescue helicopter mentioned above?
It happened in New Orleans. The warning went out. Some heeded it, some didn't. I can't explain why. But I know it happened. And that could be seen and heard clearly, just like the fact that Heaven is available for everyone, but not everyone will accept Jesus' sacrifice.
The time is now. The offer is on the table, and all those who receive Jesus and believe on His name will be saved. Again, all those who receive Jesus and believe on His name will be saved.
But verse after verse states that every knee will bow, every tongue confess, all will bow in worship...it doesn't say just "God's children". If people are just bowing outwardly out of fear or awe while their hearts remain unbowed, that doesn't glorify God.
I'm not sure either of us are qualified to determine what does or doesn't glorify God, but in this context, I guess that's not important.
What is important is that Jesus taught on Hell and Jesus didn't consider Himself to be a heretic, so I'll just go with Jesus on this one.
(Man, I thought we nailed the lid on this can of worms)
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I can't help myself guys...
