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It's just that so many of them have lived here all their lives and grew up in the years when 90% of their neighbors were LDS. They know that 90% very well because they go to church with them every Sunday and participate in church-sponsored activities with them throughout the week. They really dont have all that much incentive to get to know the other 10% of their neighbors. Consequently, they may seem to come across as judgmental and aloof. The sad thing is that they've never lived in a place where they were the minority. I think this is changing, even in Utah, but as long as you have this group of fourth- and fifth-generation Mormons, the problem is probably going to continue to exist.
Interesting interpretation of the behavior. I can't say whether or not that's the case, but that's pretty damning to me. You don't need to need to know someone at all to be friendly. Being judgmental or aloof to people not known to you is just plain lacking in common courtesy or social skills IMO. In NY we have various words for such people. It doesn't reflect well at all on a culture (or subculture?) that's so insular or closed or arrogant or snobbish that they don't seem to practice simple day to day courtesies with outsiders that they'd practice among themselves. Or are they so cocooned in their world that they simply don't know how people in the larger world interact with each other?
Interesting interpretation of the behavior. I can't say whether or not that's the case, but that's pretty damning to me. You don't need to need to know someone at all to be friendly. Being judgmental or aloof to people not known to you is just plain lacking in common courtesy or social skills IMO.
I never intended to imply that Utah Mormons are "unfriendly" towards strangers. Actually, I think that the opposite is true -- at least with respect to your typical day-to-day social interactions with people. I'd say that Utah Mormons are more likely than most people to smile at a stranger on the street, to offer their seat on a bus to the elderly, to shovel their neighbor's walk in the winter or to stop for a chat with someone they don't know while walking their dog. The point I was trying to get across is that in an area where there are so many people with one very significant thing in common with each other (in this case, religion), it's easy for them to not put themselves out to really get to know people outside of that group and maybe to stereotype "outsiders" as "different" because of some really stupid cultural issues.
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In NY we have various words for such people.
I'm sure you do. Well, by all means, feel few to use a few of them if it will make you feel better.
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It doesn't reflect well at all on a culture (or subculture?) that's so insular or closed or arrogant or snobbish that they don't seem to practice simple day to day courtesies with outsiders that they'd practice among themselves. Or are they so cocooned in their world that they simply don't know how people in the larger world interact with each other?
Here's a post I made several years back. Hopefully it will shed some light on our damning behavior:
I've been thinking posts I've seen on this forum from non-Mormons who would like to get to know their LDS neighbors a little bit better but are just kind of hesitant to make the first move or to inadvertantly offend someone they're planning on living next door to for the next fifteen years or so. I'd just like to offer a few comments and suggestions of my own:
1. Mormonism is probably one of the few, if not the only, Christian denomination where no matter where you live, your street address determines where you will attend church each Sunday. You're free to attend an LDS church on the other side of town, and you'll be welcomed there -- but always (even if you go there every week) as a "visitor." Your "home ward" is where your "ward family" resides. You see these people three hours every Sunday and associate with them at church functions throughout the week. You know their kids because you teach them in Sunday School and chauffeur them around to church-sponsored activities. If you're a woman, two women in your ward are assigned to drop in and visit with you every month, to pick your kids up after school in a pinch and to bring in a casserole to feed your family when you're under the weather. Whether you're a man or a woman, you will also have two men in your ward visit you on a monthly basis, to check on how you're doing and to pass any information you may ask them to on to your bishop (if you lost your job, for instance, or were going into the hospital for some surgery). Stop and think about it... If you were quite good friends with more than a hundred people within an area of just a few square blocks of your house, if your needs were being met by this wide circle of people you knew you had a lot in common with, how much effort would you put into getting to know someone who was new in your neighborhood and was not part of that group? Probably not as much effort as you should. We plead guilty. We may not have a good excuse, but it's not that we're going out of our way to shun you.
2. Mormons have a health code (the Word of Wisdom) that seems to interfere with our getting to know our non-Mormon neighbors a lot more than it should. Our non-Mormon neighbors would love to have us over for coffee, but they have heard that we're going to be offended by the gesture. Those who haven't done their homework may actually make the faux pas of inviting us over some evening "for a few drinks." And yes, a fair number of Mormons will interpret "a few drinks" as being synonomous with "a drunken brawl!!!! No, we're really not quite that bad, but that's just something we don't do, and those of us who have spent our entire lives in the Church (and especially here in Mormon country, where we have plenty of friends who don't drink either) sometimes do make unfair assumptions about what "a couple of beers" really means. I know a lot of Mormons who would not want to go out to dinner with a couple that intends to have a glass of wine with their meal. I know a lot of Mormons who wouldn't give it a second thought. If possible, get to know your LDS neighbors in a setting that wouldn't involve alcohol before you invite them to a dinner where alcohol is served. It's silly, I know, that it should be such an issue, but if you want to get to know them, a little bit of respect for their beliefs will go along way. It probably won't take too awfully long before your having a glass of wine or them having a 7-up won't change the way in which you relate to each other.
3. Keep in mind that for us, the fun part of the weekend is only one day long. As much as we'd like to go to a movie or a football game or Lagoon with you, we would be very unlikely to agree to go with you on a Sunday. (We might watch the same movie or football game at home on TV, though. Don't ask me to explain that one.) We limit our shopping to the extent possible to the other six days of the week, and you won't find us out mowing our lawns or washing our cars on Sunday either. Some Mormons insist that their kids stay home with their families on Sunday when they're not in Church. This isn't Church policy, but I know a lot of families that feel that way. So, that means that even though they are happy to have their kids play with yours the other six days of the week, they may not be able to continue Saturday's activity on Sunday. That would include Saturday night sleepovers. Mondays are reserved for Family Home Evening, or at least they're supposed to be. A lot of LDS families won't let their kids do anything with friends on Monday night because they're going to be spending the evening with their own brothers and sisters. Couples whose kids are grown and out of the house are generally a lot less likely to be sticklers for Family Home Evenings. Finally, if you want to ask your LDS neighbors to go to a movie with you, keep in mind that many of them do not watch R-rated movies. Again, others do. You just need to get to know them and not take anything for granted.
Oh, and one more thing. Keep in mind that Mormons aren't always treated all that well when they move to some parts of the country. A lot of "Christians" would rather die than let their kids be friends with one of those Mormons! If you don't think there's a heck of a lot of unfounded prejudice against us, you need to walk in our shoes for awhile.
I think a large part of it is that there's 3-4 church activities a week, plus family obligations, plus work obligations - it doesn't leave much room in a person's social calendar. So someone who's not LDS and moves into the area, will probably get some friendly hellos, and friendly waves when neighbors drive past, but it's hard to make friends because if an LDS member's activities are all with their family or church-related, then it doesn't make sense to invite along a non-member (I don't think non-members would like most of the church activities, anyhow).
The problem isn't really that people are purposefully rude. It's that when so much time is dedicated to "the church" (which is how it's phrased here), there's not much time left over for people you don't know. After all, if your life revolves around the church (family members, friends, and often co-workers are all part of the religion), then it doesn't make sense to go out of your way to become friends with people who are not part of that community. I mean, if your life revolved around hunting, would you purposefully go out of your way to become friends with a vegan?
The reason I was shocked with the way I was treated when I visited my local ward (see my previous post), is that going to church (at least where I grew up) is almost an instant way into the community. It was always taught to us to be welcoming to the person who could potentially be a new member. It was odd that my experience with Utah Mormons had them being exclusive even within their church.
EDIT: Just saw Katzpur's post right before mine, and it explains it much better than I did.
I never intended to imply that Utah Mormons are "unfriendly" towards strangers. Actually, I think that the opposite is true -- at least with respect to your typical day-to-day social interactions with people. I'd say that Utah Mormons are more likely than most people to smile at a stranger on the street, to offer their seat on a bus to the elderly, to shovel their neighbor's walk in the winter or to stop for a chat with someone they don't know while walking their dog. The point I was trying to get across is that in an area where there are so many people with one very significant thing in common with each other (in this case, religion), it's easy for them to not put themselves out to really get to know people outside of that group and maybe to stereotype "outsiders" as "different" because of some really stupid cultural issues.
Thanks, that's clearer, I think I misunderstood. I took it to mean that many Mormons would pretty much give the cold shoulder to somebody not in their circle - basically snobbish behavior (and we have LOTS of snobs out here!). There's a big difference between being friendly and wanting to be friends. And the former doesn't indicate that the latter is the case. And guess what? That's fine with me. My wife and I also establish our friendships on the basis of mutual interests and world view. So we wouldn't be offended by an LDS family next door that wasn't interested in leftist politics and evening cocktail. But I'd wave and keep an eye on their house if they were away. And I'd hope that they'd do likewise. It's just neighborly.
Last edited by kletter1mann; 04-24-2013 at 05:08 PM..
Reason: clarity
The reason I was shocked with the way I was treated when I visited my local ward (see my previous post), is that going to church (at least where I grew up) is almost an instant way into the community. It was always taught to us to be welcoming to the person who could potentially be a new member. It was odd that my experience with Utah Mormons had them being exclusive even within their church.
That's what I interpreted as snobbish behavior - and it sounds like it is!
The reason I was shocked with the way I was treated when I visited my local ward (see my previous post), is that going to church (at least where I grew up) is almost an instant way into the community. It was always taught to us to be welcoming to the person who could potentially be a new member. It was odd that my experience with Utah Mormons had them being exclusive even within their church.
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Originally Posted by kletter1mann
That's what I interpreted as snobbish behavior - and it sounds like it is!
Okay, I've posted this story before, too, but I think it bears repeating on this thread. Back in the fall of 1981, my husband and I moved to the Harvard-Yale area of Salt Lake City. We had been married 11 years and had owned one home in Salt Lake City previously (a condo, actually). We had fallen in love with the area and knew it was absolutely the one and only area of the city where we wanted to live. Well, we couldn't have made a worse mistake. We are LDS and expected a warm welcome from our neighbors and "ward members." About two months after moving in, my husband went over to the ward to help the other men set up tables and chairs for the ward Christmas dinner/party. He was gone about an hour and a half. When he got back home, he told me that not one person had so much as spoken to him in that period of time. Not one. We stayed in that house for six months before moving out (and yes, we had purchased the house; we were not renting). We actually took a loss on the house because we were so anxious to sell and get out of the area. The area was extremely snobby, but as a lifelong Mormon and a lifelong Salt Lake City resident, I knew enough to figure out that religion had nothing to do with the fact that we were basically invisible to the people in the neighborhood. We moved to the home in Cottonwood Heights where we are now and have been for 31 years. Our ward here is totally different than our ward in the Harvard-Yale area. Now if I had been a non-Mormon moving into Salt Lake City, I would have probably jumped to the conclusion that "Mormons are sure snobby," and it would have been an entirely unfounded stereotype, based upon my experience in one neighborhood.
There are twelve families on our street in Cottonwood Heights. Of the twelve, five are practicing Mormons. The other seven are either non-practicing Mormons or not Mormons at all. I know that one is Catholic and one is Muslim. I don't much about the others. I do know, though, that when the son of one of the non-Mormon families was killed in a horrendous automobile accident a couple of years back, my one LDS neighbor made sure everyone on the street knew that it had happened. Most (if not all) of us went in together on a floral arrangement. Several of us took turns house-sitting during the funeral (as is customary around here). I was asked to go over to the house for an hour just to keep an eye out for any suspicious activity while the family was away. I was one of about three people who were involved in that act of service to the family. I didn't really know them, and they didn't really know me -- except just to wave hello, but I was comfortable going over there and they were comfortable having me in their house alone. Now that's what I call a good-neighbor relationship. No, we don't socialize with this family, but we don't need to. They know we're there for them and visa versa.
Katzpur - I'm not in the area that I would consider Harvard/Yale, but I'm not too far (I live in between Parley's and Foothill, close to where they come together to meet at the junction of 80 and 215).
I will say, though, that a lot of the college students I work with have had similar experiences, and they live all over SLC, and some live up near Bountiful. That said, I have a friend in Sandy whose family was very welcome - they have younds kids, though, so that could have made a difference.
Obviously it just depends on the ward. But I have heard from enough out-of-state Mormons that they felt unwelcome and/or found it very difficult to feel like they fit in with the wards here vs wards in other states.
BUT - I'll also say that I'm friendly with my neighbors, and I do feel like my house is safe when I'm out of town, because I know my neighbors would report any suspicious activity. People are for the most part friendly in passing - it's just when the contact is more than "in passing" that I feel like there's some cold-shoulders and exclusivity.
We've lived in our Sandy home for over 15 years. When we leave town - we give our cell number to our LDS neighbors and non-LDS neighbors.
We trust them to call the police if necessary. They will also haul out our garbage cans if we're gone on garbage day. And this January when we drove to California on the snowiest week here in Utah - they shoveled our driveway so we could get into our garage when we returned late at night.
When we first went out of town without our golden retriever and had a petsitter/housesitter..... one of the neighbors we didn't inform did call the police about a suspicious car (the petsitters).... she was rather frantic about it.
Now we tell EVERYONE when we're gone.
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If you don't think there's a heck of a lot of unfounded prejudice against us, you need to walk in our shoes for awhile.
