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I realize this is a pretty specific question, but I'm curious if anyone in the Bay Area currently has lived in (or is familiar with) the COL comparisons between the Bay area and NYC Metro Area and have any advice to add?
As a little background, we recently purchased a home in Westchester County and have a pretty good understanding/expectation of the high COL, crazy real estate taxes and general expenses that seem to go along with dining, transportation and everything else. My former job took me out to Palo Alto almost weekly, and I really became impressed with the Bay area. We definitely have it in mind as our "dream" relocation at some point in the future, but have always balked at moving until we can find higher paying jobs than what we currently have in NYC (we both currently work in the finance/technology industries). In my mind, (and this may be way off base) based on the home prices, we should target to have at least a $400-500k combined income before even considering a move.
Is this fear unfounded? Or would it be comparable to what one might expect living in the New York area? I love Westchester, but would trade it any day to move. The food, infrastructure, culture, weather and everything we've experienced have been far more desirable. The reason we selected NYC was to get a jump start on our careers and eventually hope to transition Westwards.
If you do a like for like comparison of identical housing stock in identically ranked communities vis a vis crime, schools, transit, etc, etc, you get more bang for your buck in Westchester.
If you look at something like Rockland, Rockland wins by a landslide.
Our problem here is you don't get the effect you do in NYC where prices drop in concentric ring fashion based on distance from Manhattan. Here, you're gonna pay at least the price of a good inner borough hood even when you are well out from the center.
400-500k in annual income will absolutely provide a lovely, luxurious life here. But luxury here might look a little different.
I'm not familiar with westchester, but if you're looking in the $2 million or so range, you'll find a nice home in a nice neighborhood fairly easily here. It may not be comparable to a "nice home in a nice neighborhood" elsewhere though. A quick Google search makes it seem like 2 mil will buy you a large home, well remodeled, on a beautiful green lawn in westchester. In Palo Alto, that's more like a 2-3 bedroom home, probably unremodeled, on a small plot. Still a very nice life, though. And of course, you could look outside Palo Alto to areas where 2 million will buy more. If you want to stay on the peninsula, that will probably buy a 3-4 bedroom home with some remodelling on a 1/4 acre plot in San Mateo, San Carlos, Belmont, etc.
There's also the social cache, if you care about that. I don't know westchester, but if it is seen as a very high status neighborhood, that might be more comparable to atherton, Hillsborough, or woodside. You'd be much less likely to find anything for 2 million or so in those places.
It is a wonderful area, though, and the intangible benefits are worth it in my opinion.
I have written on this extensively re: NY. Search for my name and city-data. NY suburbs (including NJ and LI) have a much, much bigger middle tier accessible to families making 100k (yup, that little!) to 200k with good schools within range of major job centers that the Bay Area does not. Won't be luxurious but will be solid. People in this range are screwed here.
I am from NYC area. Unless you are talking about the top end of the top tier of Westchester (which is near Bay Area prices, though lots and sq footage will be higher), mid-high Westchester offers much more value. Good public school districts are much more common in the East.
If you're so in love with the Bay Area, and you are not in love with nature, the climate, and the Sierra, etc, (i.e. the real value of CA) then I really can only conclude that you see materialistic glamour in Palo Alto and Silicon Valley that I think is a mirage. BTW, I live in Palo Alto. It's a very nice suburb, like the best suburbs in about 10 or 20 states....except it's near Stanford and in the middle of a tech bubble. I think you'll find many more good restaurants, for example, in the NY metro area suburbs. NY metro area transportation is vastly superior to the Bay Area. Not even close.
How is the Bay Area better? I'd say that the suburban Bay Area has a bit of the feel of a giant city (in a good way, without the building density - it's more cosmopolitan and forward-thinking). A lot of very smart elite live here, and that can be interesting. And if you are in the tech industry, this is like Hollywood and show business (though NY is growing, it might contend in 20 years).
400k to 500k income here gets you, IMO, a nice start to the kind of life you can get for 200k in the NY metro area. You can do your own math on how much you want to save out of your salary and how much you want to put towards a house.
If you work somewhere in Santa Clara or San Mateo counties (where most tech jobs are) and you want a good condition (not fully renovated) 3/2 of about 2000 sq feet and want 7/10 schools k thru 12, and you want to be within a 45 minute door to door commute, you are looking at spending 1.5m minimum. If you extend your commute closer to 80 minutes, you can get below 1m, but you don't have a ton of choice. If you want a real luxury home, you're looking at 2m, 3m+. That does not include Palo Alto, Menlo Park, etc. If you want storybook, you need 4m, 6m, 8m+ depending on town, lot size (lots are waaay smaller in CA) and views, if any.
If you work in SF and want to live there, it's even more expensive. If you work in SF and want to live in the East Bay, you get more for your money, maybe 20% more if you choose, say, Orinda.
Anyway, you get the idea. It's very hard to understand the expense of the suburban Bay Area without living here.
Hi there, I'm from Bergen County, about 30 min from Westchester County. I don't want to give too many specifics but I am from a town that has one of the top school systems in NJ. So, we are neighbors and our neighborhoods have similar housing prices, residential taxes, and COL.
$1M in a place like Allendale, Saddle River, Franklin Lakes, Ridgewood, etc. will go much further than it will where I live now, which is a middle class town called Fremont. $1M in any of the aforementioned towns will get you a really, REALLY nice home. In Fremont (which, btw, is A LOT cheaper than Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc.) $1 M will net you a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom 2400 sq ft home. Nothing fancy or luxurious. A condo will cost you $600K - $700K for 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom that's in decent condition. $700K will get you a beautiful house or high end, luxury town house in Paramus. Rent wise, I rent a 700 sq ft apartment (1 bd/ 1 ba) for about $2500 / month. For $1800 / month, I could rent a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment with hardwood floors in Ridgewood, walking distance from the train station that takes me straight into NYC. $2400 / month will also get you a nice, luxury apartment in Hoboken overlooking the Manhattan Skyline just steps from the ferry on the Hudson. In fact, I could rent a really nice place in that (infamous?) Galaxy building on the Hudson where Ice-T and Coco live, haha. Some acquaintances of mine live in White Plains and they rent a cute 3 bedroom, pre-war walkup close to the train station for less than my 1 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment.
I just realized that after writing all this, man... I miss the NYC area. *sniff, sniff*
I have written on this extensively re: NY. Search for my name and city-data. NY suburbs (including NJ and LI) have a much, much bigger middle tier accessible to families making 100k (yup, that little!) to 200k with good schools within range of major job centers that the Bay Area does not. Won't be luxurious but will be solid. People in this range are screwed here.
I am from NYC area. Unless you are talking about the top end of the top tier of Westchester (which is near Bay Area prices, though lots and sq footage will be higher), mid-high Westchester offers much more value. Good public school districts are much more common in the East.
If you're so in love with the Bay Area, and you are not in love with nature, the climate, and the Sierra, etc, (i.e. the real value of CA) then I really can only conclude that you see materialistic glamour in Palo Alto and Silicon Valley that I think is a mirage. BTW, I live in Palo Alto. It's a very nice suburb, like the best suburbs in about 10 or 20 states....except it's near Stanford and in the middle of a tech bubble. I think you'll find many more good restaurants, for example, in the NY metro area suburbs. NY metro area transportation is vastly superior to the Bay Area. Not even close.
How is the Bay Area better? I'd say that the suburban Bay Area has a bit of the feel of a giant city (in a good way, without the building density - it's more cosmopolitan and forward-thinking). A lot of very smart elite live here, and that can be interesting. And if you are in the tech industry, this is like Hollywood and show business (though NY is growing, it might contend in 20 years).
400k to 500k income here gets you, IMO, a nice start to the kind of life you can get for 200k in the NY metro area. You can do your own math on how much you want to save out of your salary and how much you want to put towards a house.
If you work somewhere in Santa Clara or San Mateo counties (where most tech jobs are) and you want a good condition (not fully renovated) 3/2 of about 2000 sq feet and want 7/10 schools k thru 12, and you want to be within a 45 minute door to door commute, you are looking at spending 1.5m minimum. If you extend your commute closer to 80 minutes, you can get below 1m, but you don't have a ton of choice. If you want a real luxury home, you're looking at 2m, 3m+. That does not include Palo Alto, Menlo Park, etc. If you want storybook, you need 4m, 6m, 8m+ depending on town, lot size (lots are waaay smaller in CA) and views, if any.
If you work in SF and want to live there, it's even more expensive. If you work in SF and want to live in the East Bay, you get more for your money, maybe 20% more if you choose, say, Orinda.
Anyway, you get the idea. It's very hard to understand the expense of the suburban Bay Area without living here.
....we should target to have at least a $400-500k combined income before even considering a move.
However, with that salary, I imagine that you would be able to afford a million dollar home (or more?) in this area. Your money will, however, go farther in the area where you currently live.
Hi there, I'm from Bergen County, about 30 min from Westchester County. I don't want to give too many specifics but I am from a town that has one of the top school systems in NJ. So, we are neighbors and our neighborhoods have similar housing prices, residential taxes, and COL. $1M in a place like Allendale, Saddle River, Franklin Lakes, Ridgewood, etc. will go much further than it will where I live now, which is a middle class neighborhood called Fremont. $1M in any of the aforementioned towns will get you a really, REALLY nice home. In Fremont (which, btw, is A LOT cheaper than Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc.) $1 M will net you a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom 2400 sq ft home. Nothing fancy or luxurious. A town house will cost you $600K - $700K for 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom that's in decent condition. $700K will get you a beautiful house or town house in Paramus. Rent wise, I rent a 700 sq ft apartment (1 bd/ 1 ba) for about $2500 / month. For $1800 / month, I could rent a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment with hardwood floors in Ridgewood, walking distance from the train station that takes me straight into NYC. $2400 / month will also get you a nice, luxury apartment in Hoboken overlooking the Manhattan Skyline just steps from the ferry on the Hudson. In fact, I could rent a really nice place in that (infamous?) Galaxy building on the Hudson where Ice-T and Coco live, haha. Some acquaintances of mine live in White Plains and they rent a cute 3 bedroom, pre-war walkup close to the train station for less than my 1 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment.
I just realized that after writing all this, man... I miss the NYC area. *sniff, sniff*
The White Plains walkup idea sounds interesting. I could handle that.
I have written on this extensively re: NY. Search for my name and city-data. NY suburbs (including NJ and LI) have a much, much bigger middle tier accessible to families making 100k (yup, that little!) to 200k with good schools within range of major job centers that the Bay Area does not. Won't be luxurious but will be solid. People in this range are screwed here.
I am from NYC area. Unless you are talking about the top end of the top tier of Westchester (which is near Bay Area prices, though lots and sq footage will be higher), mid-high Westchester offers much more value. Good public school districts are much more common in the East.
If you're so in love with the Bay Area, and you are not in love with nature, the climate, and the Sierra, etc, (i.e. the real value of CA) then I really can only conclude that you see materialistic glamour in Palo Alto and Silicon Valley that I think is a mirage. BTW, I live in Palo Alto. It's a very nice suburb, like the best suburbs in about 10 or 20 states....except it's near Stanford and in the middle of a tech bubble. I think you'll find many more good restaurants, for example, in the NY metro area suburbs. NY metro area transportation is vastly superior to the Bay Area. Not even close.
How is the Bay Area better? I'd say that the suburban Bay Area has a bit of the feel of a giant city (in a good way, without the building density - it's more cosmopolitan and forward-thinking). A lot of very smart elite live here, and that can be interesting. And if you are in the tech industry, this is like Hollywood and show business (though NY is growing, it might contend in 20 years).
400k to 500k income here gets you, IMO, a nice start to the kind of life you can get for 200k in the NY metro area. You can do your own math on how much you want to save out of your salary and how much you want to put towards a house.
If you work somewhere in Santa Clara or San Mateo counties (where most tech jobs are) and you want a good condition (not fully renovated) 3/2 of about 2000 sq feet and want 7/10 schools k thru 12, and you want to be within a 45 minute door to door commute, you are looking at spending 1.5m minimum. If you extend your commute closer to 80 minutes, you can get below 1m, but you don't have a ton of choice. If you want a real luxury home, you're looking at 2m, 3m+. That does not include Palo Alto, Menlo Park, etc. If you want storybook, you need 4m, 6m, 8m+ depending on town, lot size (lots are waaay smaller in CA) and views, if any.
If you work in SF and want to live there, it's even more expensive. If you work in SF and want to live in the East Bay, you get more for your money, maybe 20% more if you choose, say, Orinda.
Anyway, you get the idea. It's very hard to understand the expense of the suburban Bay Area without living here.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, it is very helpful. The value for us in moving to California is, as you mentioned, the climate, environment and natural beauty of the place. Having lived in the Midwest for a greater part of my youth, I can attest to the beauty, but we really struggle in the winter finding outdoor/physical activity apart from the gym. So, at the end of the day, we're looking for a clean, safe place to live where the infrastructure and culture are geared towards more active/outdoors lifestyles.
It's interesting that you mentioned Fremont, as it seems a popular place for people who are just moving to the area and want to stay in a more reasonable COL area. I have some friends who just moved who are paying around 2500-3000 for a 2bd/2ba condo, which is what I would expect to pay in NJ or the surrounding metro (not Manhattan).
If we did move, it would be more than likely that we'd both be commuting to SF, as our current companies have offices there. Back when I worked in the area, I spent a lot of my time in the Palo Alto/Menlo Park area and occasionally traveled up to Sacramento and Roseville. Based on my limited exposure, I wouldn't expect to pay less than 3-5M for a decent home in that locale, especially Palo Alto proper. In terms of transportation, the CalTrain seemed decent, though not sure how some would compare it to the MTA up to Westchester. Monthly transportation costs currently run around $360/mo per person for MTA + metrocard, plus the annual station permit which is another $400. The total commute time is around 1hr door to door.
A lot more research will be required before we make any sort of a move, but it's interesting to get a feel from folks familiar with both areas. We like the "main street" feel of the towns like Palo Alto (contrived though it may be), relatively comparable commute to SF the Nature, plethora of available outdoor recreation on top of a mostly temperate climate. Most of these amenities are things we currently enjoy in Westchester for 3 seasons out of the year but, if you're comparing apples to apples, it's worth a thought.
Hi there, I'm from Bergen County, about 30 min from Westchester County. I don't want to give too many specifics but I am from a town that has one of the top school systems in NJ. So, we are neighbors and our neighborhoods have similar housing prices, residential taxes, and COL.
$1M in a place like Allendale, Saddle River, Franklin Lakes, Ridgewood, etc. will go much further than it will where I live now, which is a middle class town called Fremont. $1M in any of the aforementioned towns will get you a really, REALLY nice home. In Fremont (which, btw, is A LOT cheaper than Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc.) $1 M will net you a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom 2400 sq ft home. Nothing fancy or luxurious. A condo will cost you $600K - $700K for 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom that's in decent condition. $700K will get you a beautiful house or high end, luxury town house in Paramus. Rent wise, I rent a 700 sq ft apartment (1 bd/ 1 ba) for about $2500 / month. For $1800 / month, I could rent a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment with hardwood floors in Ridgewood, walking distance from the train station that takes me straight into NYC. $2400 / month will also get you a nice, luxury apartment in Hoboken overlooking the Manhattan Skyline just steps from the ferry on the Hudson. In fact, I could rent a really nice place in that (infamous?) Galaxy building on the Hudson where Ice-T and Coco live, haha. Some acquaintances of mine live in White Plains and they rent a cute 3 bedroom, pre-war walkup close to the train station for less than my 1 bedroom 1 bathroom apartment.
I just realized that after writing all this, man... I miss the NYC area. *sniff, sniff*
We actually used to live in Hudson County right next door more or less to the Galaxy towers. When rent prices skyrocketed in the 'Gold Cost' area along the waterfront, we got out and used the savings on a house. That said, there were some great things about living that close to NYC (the view, for one!). We looked extensively at homes in NJ, CT and NY and ultimately decided on lower Westchester because of the natural beauty of the place, convenience of the MTA station right around the corner, abundance of parks and trails (we do a lot of biking/hiking) and getting that general "small town" feel so close to a major metropolis. That said, you give up the shopping conveniences, so we do still end up in Paramus from time to time!
Hoboken was alright, but the place is very congested and turns from a family place by day to more of a city-wide frat party at night. You can only walk past a certain number of bar fights before wondering if you want to spend $3000/mo on an apartment right in the middle of it. Some of those Hoboken condos/lofts like the Tea Building are easily selling in the 1M range now. But I'll agree, it is convenient. We just enjoy being far enough from the city to fool ourselves into thinking that we don't live near one.
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but I am from a town that has one of the top school systems in NJ. So, we are neighbors and our neighborhoods have similar housing prices, residential taxes, and COL. 
