Can middle class people really survive in the Bay Area? (San Francisco: leasing, condos)

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by JJonesIII

Uh huh. Let me know when you can refute the salary info.

Firefighters and cops do make good money here, at least once they’ve reached a certain level of seniority. Other mid-level public employees, though? Not so much.

My name is actually on that site, and as I mentioned earlier, they list my salary as WAY higher than what I gross annually (since they’re including things like pension & benefits). So you do have to take those with a grain of salt, and also look beyond the administrative or “senior” positions. Our county librarian, who is head of the ENTIRE library system, earns like $225K - but the rest of us range from around $69-95K, if you include the other tiers of management. Without including managers, the highest salary (what I get now) is $84K. And compared to most school teachers, that is a lot!

[JJonesIII]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

Firefighters and cops do make good money here, at least once they’ve reached a certain level of seniority. Other mid-level public employees, though? Not so much.

My name is actually on that site, and as I mentioned earlier, they list my salary as WAY higher than what I gross annually (since they’re including things like pension & benefits). So you do have to take those with a grain of salt, and also look beyond the administrative or “senior” positions. Our county librarian, who is head of the ENTIRE library system, earns like $225K - but the rest of us range from around $69-95K, if you include the other tiers of management. Without including managers, the highest salary (what I get now) is $84K. And compared to most school teachers, that is a lot!

Of course firefighters and police make good money. And it's laughable that anyone would claim that these two groups would be run out of town when their income level is in the top 10% (if not 5%) of income earners in the country (hyperbole). Not sure what you're talking about regarding "benefits" as it's clearly labeled on the site (I am talking about column 4..."total pay", not column 6 "total pay with benefits"). I know people that have been on their site also and they claim it is very accurate on their pay. Not saying they couldn't have a mistake or two, but in general, I believe it's accurate (and other sources claim the validity of the high pay among firefighters and police).

[jade408]

Originally Posted by ssmaster

Oh why can't I afford to live in Paris,London or Rome??!!?? Life is so unfair.
SAN Francisco is like Paris or London. Wealthy people from all over the world want to live here. Even if prices went down there are wealthy people all over the world who would swoop in an buy before you.

You think if housing prices went down in Paris, rich people from all over the world wouldn't come in looking for bargains?

So Paris, Rome, London etc can’t have librarians, bartenders, baristas,teachers, social workers, school administrators......

Last I checked we need people to provide those basic city amenities. And you have to live in a reasonable commute distance somehow.

[ryanthegoldengod]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

Firefighters and cops do make good money here, at least once they’ve reached a certain level of seniority. Other mid-level public employees, though? Not so much.

My name is actually on that site, and as I mentioned earlier, they list my salary as WAY higher than what I gross annually (since they’re including things like pension & benefits). So you do have to take those with a grain of salt, and also look beyond the administrative or “senior” positions. Our county librarian, who is head of the ENTIRE library system, earns like $225K - but the rest of us range from around $69-95K, if you include the other tiers of management. Without including managers, the highest salary (what I get now) is $84K. And compared to most school teachers, that is a lot!

Seconded. I'm also a public employee and my salary is publicly listed as $18K higher than what I actually earn. They include "fringe" benefits like pension and healthcare. All well and good. But of course I can't use that to pay my rent or buy a house.

[Lockdev]

Originally Posted by jade408

Are you saying everyone in the public sector should just pack up and leave because of the price?

Exactly.

We have choices. We are not forced to live in a certain place and we are not forced to take government work.

If prices are too high, people that cannot afford the prices should leave.

Wages are set by the market, and if someone is willing to take an underpaid job, this is their choice. There are no shortages of people lined up to take government work, especially in the Bay Area.

Something is jacked up if a person making the median wage can barely make ends meet as a single person. You shouldn’t only need to have a lucrative job to live a basic life.

Something IS morally jacked up when public servants can no longer afford to live in the area they serve.

Unfortunately the market does not run on morals.

The sad truth is, someone is taking these jobs. If nobody did, they would have to raise the wage until a qualified candidate did.

Right now, the market is dictating low wages for certain public servants.

I wouldn't feel too bad for them. There's a huge country out there, and nobody is forcing anyone to live in the Bay Area.

[JJonesIII]

Originally Posted by Lockdev

Exactly.

We have choices. We are not forced to live in a certain place and we are not forced to take government work.

If prices are too high, people that cannot afford the prices should leave.

Wages are set by the market, and if someone is willing to take an underpaid job, this is their choice. There are no shortages of people lined up to take government work, especially in the Bay Area.



Something IS morally jacked up when public servants can no longer afford to live in the area they serve.

Unfortunately the market does not run on morals.

The sad truth is, someone is taking these jobs. If nobody did, they would have to raise the wage until a qualified candidate did.

Right now, the market is dictating low wages for certain public servants.

I wouldn't feel too bad for them. There's a huge country out there, and nobody is forcing anyone to live in the Bay Area.

Watch out there Lockdev. That kind of logic will make some heads explode here (as it's apparent that many of them don't know how a market works).

Ironically, these type of Henny Penny "sky is falling" comments have been made for years to no avail. The Police and Firefighters certainly make enough so they're not going anywhere. And as you said for the rest of them, someone is taking these jobs. Most people I know don't give a rats ass in regards to the education in the city of San Francisco, because they know it's terrible (shy of one diamond in the rough with Lowell). They all send their kids to Parochial schools.

No one has a gun to your head. If the prices are too high...leave (screw the preferential treatment on jobs). As stated, there are certainly other "good" jobs that are just as honorable that don't get any breaks either.

[ryanthegoldengod]

Originally Posted by Lockdev

Exactly.

We have choices. We are not forced to live in a certain place and we are not forced to take government work.

If prices are too high, people that cannot afford the prices should leave.

Wages are set by the market, and if someone is willing to take an underpaid job, this is their choice. There are no shortages of people lined up to take government work, especially in the Bay Area.



Something IS morally jacked up when public servants can no longer afford to live in the area they serve.

Unfortunately the market does not run on morals.

The sad truth is, someone is taking these jobs. If nobody did, they would have to raise the wage until a qualified candidate did.

Right now, the market is dictating low wages for certain public servants.

I wouldn't feel too bad for them. There's a huge country out there, and nobody is forcing anyone to live in the Bay Area.

We do not live in a 100 percent laissez faire market driven economy. You're thinking of a banana republic. In our society, when the market acts a little too amorally, it's the government's job to regulate that market. I don't have the specific answer on what should be done, but I'm just saying that's how the balancing act should work. Extreme market partisans often seem to have a blind spot on this.

Awaits being told this is nonsensical, illogal hyperbole by JJJOnesIII in 3, 2, 1.......

[Lockdev]

Originally Posted by ryanthegoldengod

it's the government's job to regulate that market. I don't have the specific answer on what should be done, but I'm just saying that's how the balancing act should work. Extreme market partisans often seem to have a blind spot on this.

Awaits being told this is nonsensical, illogal hyperbole by JJJOnesIII in 3, 2, 1.......

I'm not sure you understand capitalism(or the meaning of the word hyperbole).

The government should never try to regulate the market. They just screw things up.

The government should bust up monopolies and oligopolies and help encourage competition, but the belief that somehow the government knows how to "fix things" is comical.

The government can't even build a simple website without spending 2 billion dollars. What makes you think they can fix an economy?

[ryanthegoldengod]

Originally Posted by Lockdev

I'm not sure you understand capitalism(or the meaning of the word hyperbole).

The government should never try to regulate the market. They just screw things up.

The government should bust up monopolies and oligopolies and help encourage competition, but the belief that somehow the government knows how to "fix things" is comical.

The government can't even build a simple website without spending 2 billion dollars. What makes you think they can fix an economy?

Ignoring your condescension, I will ask if you actually believe that the market works beautifully when the government steps out of the way? The subprime mortgage crisis.....you may recall it nearly collapsed the economy......was that a result of too much government regulation or too little?

Also it's clear that you yourself do not understand the very economy you live in. For example, rent control is a check on pure capitalism. Minimum wage laws are a check on pure capitalism. The list could go on and on. Whether you like those policies or not, they are the reality of our society. We say we live in a capitalist society, but that's just shorthand. We live in a hybrid society of private capitalism and public regulation. Sorry to break the news to you. Also....the Easter bunny isn't real.

[JJonesIII]

Originally Posted by ryanthegoldengod

Ignoring your condescension, I will ask if you actually believe that the market works beautifully when the government steps out of the way? The subprime mortgage crisis.....you may recall it nearly collapsed the economy......was that a result of too much government regulation or too little?

Also it's clear that you yourself do not understand the very economy you live in. For example, rent control is a check on pure capitalism. Minimum wage laws are a check on pure capitalism. The list could go on and on. Whether you like those policies or not, they are the reality of our society. We say we live in a capitalist society, but that's just shorthand. We live in a hybrid society of private capitalism and public regulation. Sorry to break the news to you. Also....the Easter bunny isn't real.

What an absolute load of crap! But why am I not surprised to see revisionist history in play here.

Yeah, Government had no involvement whatsoever in the financial crisis. Nope, no manipulation of interest rates, no subsidies or regulations involving housing, redlining never happened, and no, there wasn't any moral hazard promoting reckless financial policies. Nope, you can't make this stuff up.

Some people just can't beyond one sided, brainwashed politics and propaganda.

No worries though. The financial crisis has been talked to death so I won't be wasting pages upon pages arguing about it as it won't change a damn thing. Those who didn't panic are smelling like a rose right now and those who did panic and refused to purchase in what was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity are on forums whining that prices are too high. Continue on with the Henny Penny comments and I'll continue to watch SF turn into the land of elitism.