Will We Survive If the SHTF??? (farming, good, natural, negative)

[bolillo_loco]

I do not believe in global warming. We may have warmed .6 degrees in the last 100 years following the "little ice age," but it's nothing to become alarmed about. I do feel that the "Global Warming Scam" is real. The average person is easily manipulated by the media and the wealthy moguls want to line their coffers some more, so they create a problem where none would normally exist. When I look at the average monthly temperatures for my area, they're exactly the same as they've always been each decade since the early 1800s. On occasion, we'll have ten years of warmer temps, ten years of cooler temps, but usually, it's on par. Most cities that have "warmed" have done so because of all the macadam and other man made things which absorb solar energy. They're trying to scam us with a carbon tax, and the sooner people wake up to this fact the better.

Racism is more alive and well than any point during my lifetime. If you're white and don't believe this, I'd suggest going into an urban environment dominated by inner city blacks. You'll quickly find out just how much blacks hate whitey. They won't all be like that, but there's an alarming number. If SHTF, it will become an issue. Comparing us with Japan is akin to discussing apples and oranges. Japan is a mono culture. Japanese people are Japanese where more than 80% adhere to the same ideological beliefs. Here, we're divided by skin color, religion, and an entire slew of very polarized beliefs. We have lefties, righties, religious zealots, rednecks, ghettos, government sloths, libertarians, etc and so forth. This is not Japan! A black ghetto boy has absolutely nothing in common with a white country boy. They don't even speak the same language.

Since the 60s, we've inundated our land with foreigners and we've told them to keep their language, culture, and we will accept them for what they are. They have absolutely no incentive to assimilate. We've accepted people who're completely different in religion than the Christian norm. These religions have historically not gotten along. Try and think of how many people you currently know who've never been divorced, have been married their entire life, and are raising children. Now think of all the people you currently know who've been divorced. It's a fact that the state's waging a war against white men, men in general, and have been propping up women. All we hear about on the media are women's issues. Go to any college and look at the number of women who make up the classes. In the two years (05 - 07) I attended community college, I was often the only male in the entire class. Granted women are more important than men due to their slower reproductive organs, but the state openly wages war against men. This has caused a lot of gender tension. This is not going to be Japan because we have very little in common with that island nation. You'll see race, culture, and gender wars if the government collapses, and it will collapse without cheap energy. Our entire economy is based on the petrodollar.

Not one city in America is currently self sufficient. Can the land that farmers have been spraying chemicals on for the past five decades grow heirloom seeds? If it's not fertile land, how long will it take to bounce back? Our current form of farming is dependent upon cheap energy and petrochemicals. Don't kid yourself that the transition will be easy. If you look back historically, most farms in my area were 40 - 200 acres and not one grew mono-crops. Only a fool farmed 1 - 3 crops back then. One problem and the entire season's lost. Hence old farms were very diverse because their lives depended upon it. Today, most farms in my area are 1,000 or more acres. The former house, farm, and outbuildings were all torn down as farmers bought each other out to expand their business of being subsidized per acre by the federal government.

To the person who brought up how many states are connected to the sea. I beg to differ! Very few states have a direct connection to the sea. Pull out a map of America and look at it. The states connected to the sea by the Mississippi River and its tributaries will no longer be viable if cheap energy ends. Only the eastern, gulf, and west coast states have a direct connection with the sea. How are people going to make seafood viable with sailboats, horse and buggy, and coal fired trains. Unless I'm mistaken, the premise of this thread is what we're going to do when cheap petrochemicals end. This means make up, fertilizers, plastics, and everything we currently consume will end and we'll have to go back to a system we had prior to the 60s and a transportation system circa 1890 - 1910. That transition's going to be very painful and not everybody's going to survive. We will be caught unaware by this event because most Americans do not want to give up their computers, cell phones, Kindle Readers, Japanese cars burning middle eastern oil, Chinese clothing, shoes, and Chinese durable goods and a general society of working pointless jobs, consuming 100% foreign goods, military industrial complex, jailer nation industrial complex. All the meaningful farming, mining, and manufacturing have left the nation.

When ghetto people don't get their demands met, they currently riot. It happens anytime they're giving away a limited number of free housing, computers, cheese, etc and the number of people lined up exceeds whatever they're giving away. Look at the chaos in this country during holiday shopping... If you don't see the obvious problems with American cities, I don't know what to say. American cities are divided by economic status and race. Lebanon, Pennsylvania is the closest city to me. We're now getting black bars and a growing black faction. While normally not a problem, in today's America it's an issue because they're a different culture than what's already here. Hence, I expect to see Lebanon, Pa. grow a black part of town in the near future. The north side is the Hispanic side, and it's conveniently separated by the double railroad tracks that divide the town into the north side and south side. Yes there are places that are integrated, but few like it. They are trapped there economically. Many whites have fled to the suburbs and the town is slowly leaking it's population and has been in decline since 1970, which interestingly marks a decade of Puerto Rican immigration to the city...

The Hispanics that come here today do not assimilate. I grew up in Lebanon. When I was a kid, we all knew the handful of blacks that lived there. Their fathers worked with our fathers, drank in the same bars, and played the same sports together, and their children went to school with us. During the 60s, the number of Hispanics that the Bethlehem Steel brought here to work in the hot mills all assimilated into our culture. Most Puerto Ricans who're my age do not even speak Spanish. This is no longer true for the blacks and Hispanics coming here today. They do not assimilate into the culture. They have black culture, black vernacular, and pride themselves on being black, whites also do this, and the new Hispanics arriving don't even bother to learn the language. The only thing keeping a lid on all this "diversity" is the federal, state, and local governments employing a huge police force. What will happen when we no longer have government to control this? Just look to Yugoslavia and the countries formed when it fell apart, and that will give you a good idea what's going to happen.

I feel that every person has a normal bias based on age, gender, race, and ideological beliefs, but that doesn't necessarily make them dangerous people. What we currently have is a problem that the federal government's created. They're great stick stirrers and are famous for creating problems where none would normally exist. Look at all the 1960s programs and all that they've done to destroy society. The war on poverty would be the best example without getting people in an uproar over gender and race. We currently have more people per capita living in poverty than we did at any point since the 1960s. I constantly hear people talking about how poor people in America have it so great! These myopic sods are constantly comparing our poor with some tribesman in a bush hut. I do not equate living in subsidized housing, getting a check, in the middle of the ghetto a laudable lifestyle, and most ghetto people I've known don't like it. They're not safe and live in fear 24/7. If you think the care we give the poor is so great, go live with them.

This is not Japan. We will not get along. Moreover, what would have happened to Japan without any foreign aid? If we lose cheap energy, it's going to be a global event. The petrodollar is real. Hence, as America fails, so does the world, and you will not see foreign aid pouring into our nation. We're one of the least liked countries in the word due to our government's foreign policies of bombs, bullets, and embargoes. We force our polices upon other nations, so our businesses can go there and enslave the indigenous people, and loot their natural resources, so I have to ask, if the world's governments fail, who's going to come to our aid and how friendly are they going to be?

We currently have a large portion of have nots and people dependent upon the government for their jobs, checks, and housing. I will stand on my original assessment that <1% of America is self sufficient. What will go on in this country when cheap energy ends will be the product of the (L.A. Riots and Donner Party²)² The average person cannot start a fire without a ready made combustion device and an accelerant. What will the 22 million in southern California do? How about the 8 million in New York City? Those are just two examples of many that exist in America. White people talk about how they get along with blacks, yet "white flight" has a definition and is taught in sociology classes. Blacks are no better than whites when it comes to getting along. At least half of America no longer has a nuclear family. The state wants us dependent upon them and they've waged an effective war against marriage, family, race and all self governing factions that society creates for itself.

No, this will not be Japan, and we've very little to learn from Cuba because we're not an island nation, mono culture, and we share very little in common with the two island nations people have brought up throughout this thread.

If you don't believe me, do your own research. I'd strongly suggest that you do. My words are intended to make one curious and doubtful so they do their own investigation of things that go on in this country. If one is interested in a quick lesion, walk into any bar where you're the only one of your kind. Whether it's race, sex, age, or political beliefs, make sure that you're the only one of your kind. It won't take long for something to happen, and if you talk about your problems and how you're discriminated against, I'll ensure you that if you're not thrown out, you'll get into a physical altercation. We are a divided multicultural nation with very polarized and different belief systems.

Yes we could go back to coal, but that transition will not happen overnight. The biggest problem is our government. It's over regulated, over taxed, and over stepped its boundaries. I feel that it's past its usefulness by some five decades and is causing our decline as both a nation and society.

If you look back through history, people often become polarized during time of strife. Without the rule of law, the polarization is often violent. I spent 12 or 13 weeks at Parris Island Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot. Most of the young men went to Sunday services. I saw many men in tears as they worshiped God. These were men who weren't normally religious. I've been incarcerated twice in my lifetime at the county level. There were non religious men who found God while they were in jail. Imagine what will happen to an entire nation when a life changing even turns everybody's life upside down and people are scrambling for shelter, water, and food while there's no organized rule of law and chaos is the new norm in a land full of "diverse" people, and I'm not alluding to the fact that they'll all just worship God. Not all God fearing people are good, and wars have been waged over religion. The term "Witch hunt" in the English lexicon for good reason...

If you suspected a bias in my words, I am white, male, Pennsylvania Dutch, bilingual, 48, baptized Catholic, went to Catholic school, but I no longer believe in or denounce God, USMC 0811 field artillery, I've been incarcerated, by societie's definition, I'm a criminal despite having never raped, robbed, or murdered, and my political affiliation could be characterized as a libertarian and or anarchist. The only real bias that should have screamed would be my anti governmental views. I would love to see 99% of the government done away with in this country and rigid laws set up that prevent the government from morphing back to its current size. If we cut 99% of the government, within a few decades, it would just grow back as big as it currently is without laws to keep it in check. One doesn't cut 75% of cancer out... I do not find policemen, firefighters, or military members laudable. They are not my heroes and the fact that they're championed as such by people shows me that propaganda works miracles.

Don't believe me. Do your own research.

Thanks for reading,
bolillo

[MTSilvertip]

Originally Posted by bolillo_loco

I do not believe in global warming. We may have warmed .6 degrees in the last 100 years following the "little ice age," but it's nothing to become alarmed about. I do feel that the "Global Warming Scam" is real. The average person is easily manipulated by the media and the wealthy moguls want to line their coffers some more, so they create a problem where none would normally exist. When I look at the average monthly temperatures for my area, they're exactly the same as they've always been each decade since the early 1800s. On occasion, we'll have ten years of warmer temps, ten years of cooler temps, but usually, it's on par. Most cities that have "warmed" have done so because of all the macadam and other man made things which absorb solar energy. They're trying to scam us with a carbon tax, and the sooner people wake up to this fact the better.

Can't argue with you on that. The folks in my area are screaming that the glaciers are melting, well, the glaciers have been melting since the end of they Younger Dryas 10,000 years ago, nothing new there. Most scams are only set up to seperate the gullible from their cash.

Racism is more alive and well than any point during my lifetime. If you're white and don't believe this, I'd suggest going into an urban environment dominated by inner city blacks. You'll quickly find out just how much blacks hate whitey. They won't all be like that, but there's an alarming number. If SHTF, it will become an issue. Comparing us with Japan is akin to discussing apples and oranges. Japan is a mono culture. Japanese people are Japanese where more than 80% adhere to the same ideological beliefs. Here, we're divided by skin color, religion, and an entire slew of very polarized beliefs. We have lefties, righties, religious zealots, rednecks, ghettos, government sloths, libertarians, etc and so forth. This is not Japan! A black ghetto boy has absolutely nothing in common with a white country boy. They don't even speak the same language.

Not a lot of blacks in my state, and the Indian nations that are here we have been in a de-facto war against for the last 150 years. They have their own soverign nations on the reservations, and while some do come out and get jobs and assimilate, there are a lot that stay "Rez" and want nothing to do with their neighbors.

Not one city in America is currently self sufficient. Can the land that farmers have been spraying chemicals on for the past five decades grow heirloom seeds? If it's not fertile land, how long will it take to bounce back? Our current form of farming is dependent upon cheap energy and petrochemicals. Don't kid yourself that the transition will be easy. If you look back historically, most farms in my area were 40 - 200 acres and not one grew mono-crops. Only a fool farmed 1 - 3 crops back then. One problem and the entire season's lost. Hence old farms were very diverse because their lives depended upon it. Today, most farms in my area are 1,000 or more acres. The former house, farm, and outbuildings were all torn down as farmers bought each other out to expand their business of being subsidized per acre by the federal government.

My area is mostly ranching, raising cattle, or wheat because of the climate, but your point is valid.

To the person who brought up how many states are connected to the sea. I beg to differ! Very few states have a direct connection to the sea. Pull out a map of America and look at it. The states connected to the sea by the Mississippi River and its tributaries will no longer be viable if cheap energy ends. Only the eastern, gulf, and west coast states have a direct connection with the sea. How are people going to make seafood viable with sailboats, horse and buggy, and coal fired trains. Unless I'm mistaken, the premise of this thread is what we're going to do when cheap petrochemicals end. This means make up, fertilizers, plastics, and everything we currently consume will end and we'll have to go back to a system we had prior to the 60s and a transportation system circa 1890 - 1910. That transition's going to be very painful and not everybody's going to survive. We will be caught unaware by this event because most Americans do not want to give up their computers, cell phones, Kindle Readers, Japanese cars burning middle eastern oil, Chinese clothing, shoes, and Chinese durable goods and a general society of working pointless jobs, consuming 100% foreign goods, military industrial complex, jailer nation industrial complex. All the meaningful farming, mining, and manufacturing have left the nation.

This one I differ from you on as we have huge untapped coal reserves, and the industrial revolution was powered by coal.
While not as versitile or clean as oil, it could take care of our power needs and power trains or ships as well as the electrical grid.

I feel that every person has a normal bias based on age, gender, race, and ideological beliefs, but that doesn't necessarily make them dangerous people. What we currently have is a problem that the federal government's created. They're great stick stirrers and are famous for creating problems where none would normally exist. Look at all the 1960s programs and all that they've done to destroy society. The war on poverty would be the best example without getting people in an uproar over gender and race. We currently have more people per capita living in poverty than we did at any point since the 1960s. I constantly hear people talking about how poor people in America have it so great! These myopic sods are constantly comparing our poor with some tribesman in a bush hut. I do not equate living in subsidized housing, getting a check, in the middle of the ghetto a laudable lifestyle, and most ghetto people I've known don't like it. They're not safe and live in fear 24/7. If you think the care we give the poor is so great, go live with them.

Stirring up trouble between races or whatever has always been a way for some folks to attain power. Look at Algore or the current president. Creating, expanding or using division is the way lots of folks have either moved into positons of power, or made huge amounts of money.
Tried and true method.


If you look back through history, people often become polarized during time of strife. Without the rule of law, the polarization is often violent. I spent 12 or 13 weeks at Parris Island Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot. Most of the young men went to Sunday services. I saw many men in tears as they worshiped God. These were men who weren't normally religious. I've been incarcerated twice in my lifetime at the county level. There were non religious men who found God while they were in jail. Imagine what will happen to an entire nation when a life changing even turns everybody's life upside down and people are scrambling for shelter, water, and food while there's no organized rule of law and chaos is the new norm in a land full of "diverse" people, and I'm not alluding to the fact that they'll all just worship God. Not all God fearing people are good, and wars have been waged over religion. The term "Witch hunt" in the English lexicon for good reason...

People have always turned to religion when there is no other option for assistance in hard times. They look for meaning and peace, for a feeling there is something with a plan controlling the situation so it will come out allright.
People need something to believe in, and something that can give them hope.

Not going to answer every point, but you made some good ones.

Sounds like you have thought this through pretty well. Can't rep you again, but your posts on this thread are really worthy of it.

[eyewrist]

Yes, I have to agree with the governmental influence of the condition of the this nation. But more are aware than you think but I guess those in or from the Midwest are not afraid to reason, think and consider. Those in the area are very familiar with corruption so they will take a seat and listen to your views. When I returned back home five years ago, it was those in Chicago who told me to read the book Behold the Pale Horse by William Cooper and made mention of the book Atlas Shruggs (the orginal one of course.) They were the ones who said watch the documentaries like Burzynski Movie, 911, in Plane Site, and Food Inc..just to name a few. They were very familiar with it and come from diverse educationaland racial backgrounds.

Now the younger gen under 25 will have no clue of these things and have been brainwashed into complancency with the use of drugs along with the parent doing the same things as they...this will be one of the bigger issues.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by eyewrist

I guess you two may be right. I was reared in Chicago area and dealing with those of different races , religion and ethnicity has never been an issue. I am not saying division will not happen, it will. People will gravitate to those they most similar and familiar to...that's a given. But I can't see a group of people excluding another when they need them. For example, a group of whites who has a need for a doctor or farmer who may be Black or Hispanic or a family who is Muslim that has skills of adapting in a survival situation.. or two gays guys who has stored a surplus of food or have medical supplies. And to know these people have these skills, talents or supplies, one would have to associated with them.

There are those who would function just as you say here. I think this effect would present itself mostly for those who may be "different" from everyone else, but who tend to hide it or at least not rub everyone's noses in it. As I said above, those who hide it well. I think it could certainly be overlooked by the whole in that situation. This takes a certain type of mentality, though. And, largely, that mentality is forced in our society and will largely disappear when the "gatekeepers" are not around. Of course, I'm not saying it's right, but I fear that's the way it would be.

So for society on the whole, (at least I believe) it would quickly become fragmented and the fragments formed around whatever lines would become fairly (if not extremely) hostile toward other fragments.

Originally Posted by eyewrist

But the most sinister individual will be the unknown drug addicts amongst the group, no matter what his/her race, religion or sexual orientation may be. Drug use is abundant folks.... with stay at home moms, teenagers , nurses and doctors and street people. That nurse or soft spoken mom in your group will be tapping into the medical supply of pain killers just to get high, a teenager addicted to meth will sale the food supply right from under your nose with a cute smile on their face. They will lie and blame someone else with a quickness resulting in division within. With that said, I personally would take anyone, not matter what color, religion or otherwise over ANY drug addicted person.

Drug addiction is a form of self-imposed slavery--worse in a way because one cannot escape or walk away and be free. Most of these folks wouldn't last long in a "situation." They either would die due to their dependency or while trying to feed that dependency. I don't think most non-chemically-enhanced people would offer much sympathy when an addict is stealing from them for his/her next high. I suppose it depends on the situation; there may be some sympathy and help at times. But in any case, that addict would either straightened out very quickly or be excluded from any sort of productive group, which of course would mean death for most of them.

[PedroMartinez]

Some good reading on this thread.

[cpg35223]

Short of thermonuclear war, a largish meteor striking the earth, or the Yellowstone Caldera blowing up, SHTF scenarios are just incredibly dumb, mental masturbation for nihilists. Anybody who believes for a second that civilization will just fall apart has read too many Robert Heinlein novels or watched way too much television. I think you all need to step away from your computers, go outside and chill.

At the very worst, i.e. the collapse of the Federal government, power simply devolves to the local and regional level, which are sophisticated entities in their own right. Martial law would be declared, the national guard would be called out, militias would be organized to supplement the local police, and the pieces would be picked up pretty quickly. Once a few looters were shot, civil order would be restored in a hurry. Economic activity would resume, the level of which would depend on the diversity of a given area's economy. But this belief that you'll suddenly be growing radishes out in the hinterland while fighting off intruders is just plain stupid. Take a shot at a tax collector in the aftermath, and you'll look forward to a visit from a few hundred well-armed soldiers.

I mean, hell, I live within 50 miles of coal mines, natural gas wells, steel mills, farms, ranches, timber mills, manufacturing facilities, an ammunition plant, hydroelectric dams, and a host of other resources. The thought that all that would just suddenly go away is just a fantasy. A weird one, but a fantasy nonetheless.

[MTSilvertip]

Originally Posted by cpg35223

Short of thermonuclear war, a largish meteor striking the earth, or the Yellowstone Caldera blowing up, SHTF scenarios are just incredibly dumb, mental masturbation for nihilists. Anybody who believes for a second that civilization will just fall apart has read too many Robert Heinlein novels or watched way too much television. I think you all need to step away from your computers, go outside and chill.

At the very worst, i.e. the collapse of the Federal government, power simply devolves to the local and regional level, which are sophisticated entities in their own right. Martial law would be declared, the national guard would be called out, militias would be organized to supplement the local police, and the pieces would be picked up pretty quickly. Once a few looters were shot, civil order would be restored in a hurry. Economic activity would resume, the level of which would depend on the diversity of a given area's economy. But this belief that you'll suddenly be growing radishes out in the hinterland while fighting off intruders is just plain stupid. Take a shot at a tax collector in the aftermath, and you'll look forward to a visit from a few hundred well-armed soldiers.

I mean, hell, I live within 50 miles of coal mines, natural gas wells, steel mills, farms, ranches, timber mills, manufacturing facilities, an ammunition plant, hydroelectric dams, and a host of other resources. The thought that all that would just suddenly go away is just a fantasy. A weird one, but a fantasy nonetheless.

You have some valid points, but your premise is flawed in the fact a major disruption would mean the steel mills, manufacturing facilities, ammunition plant are all dependent on an undisturbed transportation system to move in materials and move out the finished product, would not be able to continue to produce.

Even farms and ranches would suffer from a disruption due to the fact that so much farming these days depend on functioning equipment which means fuel and replacement parts, and if those lines fail, then manual labor to harvest the crops.

I don't see a single catastrophic event, but the fractionalizing of this nation to forment the unrest required to keep some folks in power could have serious reprecussions.

I see another civil war as far more likely, (similar to the former Yugoslavia) rather than an abrupt SHTF event.
It would probably be a long slide into that situation, but it could happen fairly rapidly.

In the last civil war as in most wars, the conditions have to be in place, then a single event like Pearl Harbor or Fort Sumpter sets off the charge.

Reading this thread you will see a lot of potential problems identified. Some like drug abuse have always been around, as have power mad politicians.
Reading history will show that shortages of food, or jobs, when the population is subjected to conditions they can no longer live under, civil unrest starts, and if not contained can mushroom into full revolt or war.

Threads like this don't purport to accurately forecast the future, but they can show what people are worried about, how individuals see the events that are happening around them, and it can show where the cracks are in our society that could fracture and cause the event we worry about.

Dismissal of people's concerns simply shows you are either in denial, or are part of the problem. If you want to propose solutions instead of dismissing those concerns out of hand, I would be happy to hear them.

Until then, I will very closely read what others think as they may identify issues I hadn't previously thought of.

This isn't doomer porn, this thread has real people with real concerns about the direction they see the country heading. That for me means this isn't speculation about a zombie appocolypse, this is worry about the safety and security of families as they loose faith in the institutions that are abusing their power over people's lives.

I would never dismiss a reasoned argument. I may not wholeheartedly buy into everything, but their concerns are real, and their reasoning has validity and shows to me that the issues addressed aren't regional or local, but across the nation.

This in itself is a cause to read the posts closely and make a decision about whether or not to ignore what is happening.

I know I won't. I will continue to do my best to make sure that whatever happens to whatever degree, my family is provided for, even if we just maintain status quo, I will still be able to put food on the table and a roof over their heads.
THAT is my objective.

[bolillo_loco]

MTSilvertip brought up an interesting point with the coal. I am less than five miles from "The Coal Regions." Land of anthracite, which all died post WWII due to cheap oil. Had it not been for WWII, coal probably would have died five or ten years sooner than it did. I know there's mining in other states as well, and it is a viable option, but the question begs, since coal is more difficult to extract and has an appreciable amount of less BTU per given unit, would it sustain the urban sprawl we currently have? Since no private enterprise would run a trolley line to your suburb because it's not profitable or there are so many governmental regulations that nobody would want to bother with it, this means that the Federal Reserve would have to print more faux digital dollars not worth the paper that they're not even printed on so that a federal or state run train and trolley system could be put in place. Well, maybe the departments of transportation from each state could switch from their current monopoly on roads funded by the federal government through their theft of taxation and or printing money which causes even more inflation, which is stealing your money via a hidden tax. If you think that the roads you drive on are funded 100% by FET on tires, oil, and gas, I'd suggest looking into it.

Maybe the forum member called "The Coalman" can enlighten us on this dark subject if coal is a viable option and could sustain what we have as a nation. Another question for me would be what will happen to the petrodollar? It's the only thing that links us to the world and keeps us as the reserve currency. Without the petrodollar, America's inflation will not affect the world. While inflation of 1970 - 1980 and 2000 - 2010 was bad, we largely escaped Weimar Republic type inflation because our inflation is spread out to the world. Our entire economy currently revolves around consumerism and government jobs paid for by forced taxation and the printing of money to fund entitlement programs. Without the petrodollar to prop this up, I think our economy would fail. Everybody currently on any form of pension would be priced right out of life. The chain reaction the inflation and taking out everybody's buying power who works for the government, pensioners, welfare and food stamp recipients would be very bad, ugly, and violent in my opinion.

I'd love to talk about the obvious war that would start if oil was suddenly denied to America. We'd do a classical smash and grab of all the oil lands we could. We along with the British surreptitiously overthrow governments in lands where we want their reserves. Saddam Hussein was created because he was friendly towards our goals, controllable, and our puppet. Once he started accepting gold and other currencies for oil and not petrodollars, it was bombs, bullets, and weapons of mass destruction... Much like we're doing right now. Unfortunately, we're limited to what would happen once the oil's gone.

Yes coal is a viable option, but what would happen to the federal government without the petrodollar to prop it up and how painful would the transition to the inner city be for those people in the suburbs because that land would have to be converted back to farm land without the aid of petrochemicals. Moreover all of our Levittowns are possible due to cheap energy and a car based society. Without petrochemicals, I don't think it's possible. Think about losing everything you currently have. Clothing, plastics and petrochemical products are almost 100% of everything around you. Imagine everything going up in price by at least 25% overnight because coal is less efficient per unit than oil. Without the petrodollar, would anybody trade with us? Who would give us anything without something to back the dollar?

We'd have to bring back manufacturing as well, and this is impossible without getting rid of the federal government. Without the petrodollar, I think the dollar would become worthless, so we'd lose our credit rating and who would trade with us? Imagine our current government in place and manufacturing durable good in America.

Since white flight is real, how are people going to feel about moving back into cities that are dominated by minorities? How are the minorities going to feel when whites move back, drive up the price of everything, and are forced to move out?

How is the transition period going to go? There's an undefined period of transition.

I think it will just throw us into a bloody civil war. Our entire society, in my opinion, revolves around the fragile petrodollar and the cheap energy it fuels.

Please MTSivlertip, don't talk about false flag events! I could go on an on about those things! From "weapons of mass destruction" to the USS Maine there are so many to list. The Reischstag fire, the twin towers, and the like. The Federal Reserve is a private central bank in collusion with the Bank of England and a few others. Central banks profit heavily from war, and it is easy to get people behind a war with the use of false flag events. Don't take my word for it, do your own research. Consider what Smedly Butler had to say about war. This man's rendition of it gets the message across. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0

Cheers,
bolillo

[roscomac]

Heck no. But I'd rather risk not surviving in the small chance that the SacutallyHTF than live my life in stress and fear planning (and perversely hoping) for the worst.

[cpg35223]

Originally Posted by bolillo_loco

MTSilvertip brought up an interesting point with the coal. I am less than five miles from "The Coal Regions." Land of anthracite, which all died post WWII due to cheap oil. Had it not been for WWII, coal probably would have died five or ten years sooner than it did. I know there's mining in other states as well, and it is a viable option, but the question begs, since coal is more difficult to extract and has an appreciable amount of less BTU per given unit, would it sustain the urban sprawl we currently have? Since no private enterprise would run a trolley line to your suburb because it's not profitable or there are so many governmental regulations that nobody would want to bother with it, this means that the Federal Reserve would have to print more faux digital dollars not worth the paper that they're not even printed on so that a federal or state run train and trolley system could be put in place. Well, maybe the departments of transportation from each state could switch from their current monopoly on roads funded by their theft of taxation and or printing money which causes even more inflation, which is stealing your money via a hidden tax.

Maybe the forum member called "The Coalman" can enlighten us on this dark subject if coal is a viable option and could sustain what we have as a nation. Another question for me would be what will happen to the petrodollar? It's the only thing that links us to the world and keeps us as the reserve currency. Without the petrodollar, America's inflation will not affect the world. While inflation of 1970 - 1980 and 2000 - 2010 was bad, we largely escaped Weimar Republic type inflation because our inflation is spread out to the world. Our entire economy currently revolves around consumerism and government jobs paid for by forced taxation and the printing of money to fun entitlement programs. Without the petrodollar to prop this up, I think our economy would fail. Everybody currently on any form of pension would be priced right out of life. The chain reason would be bad in my opinion.

I'd love to talk about the obvious war that would start if oil was suddenly denied to America. We'd do a classical smash and grab of all the oil lands we could. We along with the British surreptitiously over throw governments in lands where we want their reserves. Saddam Hussein was created because he was friendly towards our goals, controllable, and our puppet. Once he started accepting gold and other currencies for oil and not petrodollars, it was bombs, bullets, and weapons of mass destruction... Much like we're doing right now. Unfortunately, we're limited to what would happen once the oil's gone.

Yes coal is a viable option, but what would happen to the federal government without the petrodollar to prop it up and how painful would the transition to the inner city be for those people in the suburbs because that land would have to be converted back to farm land without the aid of petrochemicals. Moreover all of our Levittowns are possible due to cheap energy and a car based society. Without petrochemicals, I don't think it's possible. Think about losing everything you currently have. Clothing, plastics and petrochemical products are almost 100% of everything around you. Imagine everything going up in price by at least 25% overnight because coal is less efficient per unit than oil. Without the petrodollar, would anybody trade with us? Who would give us anything without something to back the dollar?

We'd have to bring back manufacturing as well, and this is impossible without getting rid of the federal government. Without the petrodollar, I think the dollar would become worthless, so we'd lose our credit rating and who would trade with us? Imagine our current government in place and manufacturing durable good in America.

Since white flight is real, how are people going to feel about moving back into cities that are dominated by minorities? How are the minorities going to feel when whites move back, drive up the price of everything, and are forced to move out?

How is the transition period going to go? There's an undefined period of transition.

I think it will just throw us into a bloody civil war. Our entire society, in my opinion, revolves around the fragile petrodollar and the cheap energy it fuels.

Please MTSivlertip, don't talk about falseflag events! I could go on an on about those things! From "weapons of mass destruction" to the USS Maine" there are so many to list. The Reischstag fire, the twin towers, and the like. It is easy to get people behind a war.

I feel as if this entire post was written in 1975, for it certainly doesn't reflect the realities of the last ten years. You realize, of course, that there has been a huge upswell in domestic fossil fuel production, right? So much so that the United States is looking to repeal 40-year-old legislation prohibiting petroleum exporting. Couple that with immense new fields in Alberta and the Mexican government's recent decision to allow American investment in their oil industry, and we are looking at an energy glut in the years to come. The only real bottleneck at this point is refinery capacity.

So with a glut of domestic and North American fuel and export income from a resurgent industry in this country, I'm trying to figure out how petrodollars affect the price of energy anywhere in this country. It's a loopy theory ginned up by the Chicken Little crowd, one that ignores the wholesale fiscal instability elsewhere in the world, including the EU, Russia, China, Japan and the Middle East. I mean, hell, how come people who keep predicting the collapse of the dollar aren't talking about the Yen, given how the Japanese government is far more in hock than the United States with, demographically speaking, far fewer prospects of digging themselves out?

And as far as manufacturing is concerned, the United States not only has a very large manufacturing base, but is actually beginning to see the return of more manufacturing to our shores due to the soaring costs of labor elsewhere. I have three different manufacturing clients that have taken portions of their operations from China and returned them to the U.S. in the past two years because it no longer became viable to deal with annual 20% increases in labor costs. Add to that the decreased energy costs and transportation costs, and things are actually looking pretty good to manufacture domestically again.

The other thing to consider in the manufacturing equation is that the United States is the only industrialized country that is going to see considerable increases in the working-age population over the next 35 years. According to UN projections, the United States is slated to add 50 million to the working age population while China is looking at a full-blown crisis with the loss of 200 million. Looking around the globe, the EU, Brazil, Japan, and Russia are not having kids at the replacement rate. Even India is coming within a hairsbreadth of achieving population stasis as far as the birth rate is concerned. And throughout the developing world, not only have birthrates plummeted, but poverty rates have dropped at the same time.

Finally, why are you babbling about white flight? In actuality, the migration of whites back into cities is a very well-documented phenomenon over the past decade, one that is apt to continue and even accelerate. Even now in cities such as Atlanta and Washington DC, whites are slated to become a majority again, with other cities not far behind.