Off-Grid vs. Homesteading (houses, the wild, barn, good)
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The artisan cheese folks I mentioned earlier, had a 5 acre property 10 miles South of me. They operated a goat dairy and made cheese. About 2 years ago they moved to a different place. They found a 80-acre farm with a huge farmhouse and barn. Nearly a turn-key setup that took less than a month to be up and running as their next goat dairy. The new place was marketed at $80k.
Wish that was true here. Montana is a destination state for vacation homes so prices are based on "pretty" and unfortunately, the best farmland in the state is in some of the prettiest areas and priced way out of stupid. I've seen land priced at $30k per acre in some areas, no crop or livestock will produce well enough to afford that ground off of what the land will produce.
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Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
We have coyotes and black bear here; nobody reports problems with them. I had some trouble with hawks eyeing my birds. Haven't lost any yet, but there's always tomorrow. I would not swear that there are no cougars or wolves in this state, but none reported that I know of, hereabouts.
Count your blessings. Wolves are the main reason we went to Highlanders as they are about the only breed that can fight them off with any chance of survival, except for the buffalo which are much harder to handle.
That's exactly what I have...a little TracFone that I buy a card for every couple months at a Walmart. I wouldn't be worth the title "skinflint" if I used anything else! Got mine back in 2008 and I can't kill it.
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The prices of large livestock are too high for us to buy in any quantity, if you add in the cost of fencing, housing, hay and any vet care. That's something we'll have to try slowly. Right now, the medium stock (hogs, sheep) are all I feel comfortable starting with, and even those will be limited at first. We may have to hire on some help, but not sure how much, yet.
Good Plan. Large animals take a lot of work and equipment. Recently a guy here was trying to sell his hobby herd of Highlanders, ( 3 young cows and a yearling bull) for $4000, a real bargain, and they were already sold by the time I saw the add and called, within hours of the add being published.
Our draft horses, while horse prices are way down, are still a large expense, but they do offset the cost with the work they do, but they take a lot of expertise to take care of and use, not for the novice.
You got THAT right!
Yeah, stepping back and looking at a new barn you just built yourself, or at the cattle ready for market you were there for when they were born, you branded, guarded, healed their injuries, fought predators for, or setting down to a meal of home raised beef with sides of vegetables you grew or gathered from the wild, while warm in a home you built heated with a fire you cut the wood for yourself, something very satisfying about that.
Cell life of 20-40 years is pure garbage...Even at 20 years they wouldn't be able to deliver 1/2 the stored energy.
But that's not the point of my saying solar as a primary objective is a mistake......
One must be frank and ask are solar pannels worth the investment,,on a cost benefit analysis. Maybe for a prepper or someone with deep pockets that isn't a concern..That is a different objective than a homesteader,someone who wants a self sufficient lifestyle/ full time living..Break even analysis for ones area and needs are one thing and the other is that the initial investment of capital that is removed from USE purposes is something to not be taken lightly....That is money that's gone,untouchable for other uses/emergencies....
As for reliability grid power in the USA have an average of less that 3 hours downtime a year,,,Solar power pales in comparison to that. So argue for solar all you wish,,the statistics simply aren't their in cost, efficiency nor dependability....Grid first,portable generator second,then add in solar/wind....In time solar can be primary with grid secondary and the generator tertiary... To many jerks doing the chicken little dance of the grid is falling...
Wish that was true here. Montana is a destination state for vacation homes so prices are based on "pretty" and unfortunately, the best farmland in the state is in some of the prettiest areas and priced way out of stupid. I've seen land priced at $30k per acre in some areas, no crop or livestock will produce well enough to afford that ground off of what the land will produce.
We bought two parcels. One for $350/acre and one for $900/acre.
I've looked around and read up fairly intensively about homesteading and have come to what I consider firm conclusions...The whys to follow..
1. Off the Grid is idealistic and plain silly as an objective..
Cost is everything and failure is not an option...That solar,generator,dig a well stuff is costly and time consuming,also it's money that is diverted away from a log splitter and crop equipment. Better to wean off the grid and keep the utilities as a back up for emergencies. Not saying not to get some solar/wind/hudro solutions up and running,,just that that's something to do when things settle down. Rural is rural and even folks who run grid electricty have a back up generator because lines always go down and takes time for the lights to come back on...Ask any 3d world person and they'd sell their soul for grid electricity.....
As you say, cost is everything. My neighbor built an off-the-grid home because it would have cost $50,000 to run power to his building site. Solar hot water and photovoltaics mean he rarely needs to run a generator. Water is gravity feed from a spring, but in other areas a windmill and a water tower would be a simple and well tested off-the-shelf solution.
[quote=USAGeorge;36690278]3. Canning food and root cellars have their place but so do large chest freezers and that's not going to happen off grid....
Ammonia cycle refrigerators and freezers are available. They are pretty expensive, but work well without electricity. If you have an RV the refrigerator is ammonia cycle and will run fine off of propane.
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Originally Posted by USAGeorge
Romantic ideas can lose their luster pretty fast when put into reality.
Your going to get older if your lucky and will have to get your mind and body in sync as time go's by..In short,your not going to be able to chop those 5 cords of wood to get thru the winter at some point,,,That's life.
I don't mean to be a dream slayer,,just stressing that a lot of thought has to go into homesteading.
I'd bet a bundle that folks who crash and burn in their forage into homesteading thought off grid was a good idea and found out it was the main reason their dream was crushed...
Now you are just getting into personal choice. 5 cords of wood split and stacked will not break the bank of anyone with a steady income. You don't have to cut and split it yourself, there are lots of vigorous young men out there ready to do it for a fair price.
It is possible to lead a comfortable 21st century lifestyle off the grid, but it's not cheap. A large ammonia cycle chest freezer alone will set you back $5000. I think most people crash and burn because they far underestimate how expensive it will be to install the necessary infrastructure.
It is possible to lead a comfortable 21st century lifestyle off the grid, but it's not cheap.
I agree 100% with what you said, except for this. I do not consider $4,000 to be "expensive", and that's all we invested in our system, so far. Would have been 10X that much, to run grid power to the property. We have a modern household, complete with 6' chest freezer. We did get some slightly damaged panels for free.
There's been a lot of publicity about solar panel salesmen in the cities selling huge arrays to grid-tied customers, and when I see the wattage being generated, I scratch my head and wonder how they came up with all that? Totally unnecessary, as is the $35K price tag.
My point about energy sources is not to deride solar/hydro/wind,nor to hype grid power. Everything has a time and place...Stressing that the analysis of that is primary in success of shelter requirements and ultimately long term success in living,,not survival. As for solar I would ignore about 90% of what I call hype that's found on the internet for visiting and talking to someone who has solar in the area being considered, for a realistic view of it's cost benefit. In many areas it's a win and in others a losing proposition. Besides the efficiency/cost benefit solar in an area there may be a originator only use proposition.. where there is no "selling back to utilities" and one must be hooked up to the grid in the first place to do that when the local utility has to buy back excess,,that's not everywhere. Where it is possible be ready to spend up to $2000 dollars that the utility charges upfront in order to do so while paying you "their cost of generation,,,which is less than half of what they charge a customer...One hardly reads about that little beauty....
As I said I'm not against solar as a primary..But I'm not going to be a fanboy and point out it's party face while ignoring it's realities.
I agree with Nor'Eastah about the $4000 being reasonable...Actually I consider that very inexpensive...
One thing I've been looking/thinking about is car junkyards where a smacked up Toyota Prius/Nissan Leaf/Chevy Volt could be had and parted out for off grid use....but that's a matter of engineering and I like to fart around with such things on paper,,not for my use,just for curiosity. Such things are a hobby to me.
I like to see people succeed.
I agree 100% with what you said, except for this. I do not consider $4,000 to be "expensive", and that's all we invested in our system, so far. Would have been 10X that much, to run grid power to the property. We have a modern household, complete with 6' chest freezer. We did get some slightly damaged panels for free.
There's been a lot of publicity about solar panel salesmen in the cities selling huge arrays to grid-tied customers, and when I see the wattage being generated, I scratch my head and wonder how they came up with all that? Totally unnecessary, as is the $35K price tag.
The state here requires that only certified alternative-power installers can touch any grid-tied or net-metering setup. Each of those certified installers is also an equipment dealer, who only handles his own brand name components.
The utility company has their own contract that requires the home-owner to pay them to review/approve your wiring plans, then to inspect each stage of construction. They do not pay you for your power, ever. They give you 'points' in exchange for your power, and then they charge you the taxes on the power you generate. You can spend your points when you want power from the grid; but only for the power part of the bill, not the tax on the power, and not the transmission fees, nor the taxes on the transmission fees. Those points also have a short shelf-life, then they expire.
I conferred with the closest certified installer. His focus is on the Moosehead Lakes region. He does a lot of off-grid homes. His systems start at $100k and up. [Moosehead region is big on tourists with $Multi-Million$ vacation camps]
actually, you can have a freezer off grid. It's just a question of what you have to burn, etc, to generate the juice to run the freezer. People used to cut big blocks of lake ice, bury them (and food) in buildings full of sawdust, and they'd last for the entire summer. So, if you provide enough ice and enough insulation, there's not that much need for juice, just to run a freezer, at least.
The state here requires that only certified alternative-power installers can touch any grid-tied or net-metering setup. Each of those certified installers is also an equipment dealer, who only handles his own brand name components...He does a lot of off-grid homes. His systems start at $100k and up. [Moosehead region is big on tourists with $Multi-Million$ vacation camps]
That's incredible, Sub -- while I can see the utility wanting certified installers to do the hook-ups to protect their linemen working on the grid, requiring you to buy your panels from them is like requiring you to buy stocks from a broker-dealer who makes a commission on the sale, rather than to use a fee-only advisor. RIP-OFF.
And to think that we had looked long and hard for a property that had grid power at the road, not knowing that the Great State of Maine was in cahoots with the utilities! We would have been totally unable to use any of our own equipment, unless it was for a fully separate system running appliances that we never connected to the grid at all. God must've been looking out for us!
The things Realtors never tell you!
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