The upstate and midlands are getting screwed over once again. (Columbia: price, store)
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Greenville has the largest MSA and the largest CSA located entirely in the state of SC. Simple fact, and a fact that will make this thread go on for PAGES and PAGES simply because many fragile egos can not handle that fact.
Start reading back through and certain posters are starting to argue against their own original argument in an attempt to spin facts and or "win". Too funny, really.
Facts are facts, Greenville is both the largest MSA and largest CSA located entirely in SC.
Greenville-Anderson. Is it too painful to say the whole name? When it becomes Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson again will you still call it Greenville?
Greenville's urbanized area has an sub-area within it that is more homogeneous with more people at the income level trendy national chains look for. Columbia's sub-areas (note sub-areas - plural) that are at the same income level don't hit the critical mass of potential shoppers at the same time Greenville's area does.
Within the realm of metro areas or MSA's, Greenville's may be more spread out than Columbia's, but there's still that sweet spot within Greenville's overall area that hits the critical mass number with the right income level before any of Columbia's areas hit it. That's why the trendy national chains always end up saying once they have announced or started construction in Columbia that they have looked for the right spot for a decade. As more and more people reside in the two MSAs' sweet spots, more and more trendy national chains pay attention. Shop proud; shop local.
Very true, and that's another factor that's important when dealing with where retailers tend to locate. That probably also helps to explain why Augusta, a smaller metro with lower average income levels, has gotten more retailers/restaurants before Columbia.
The original post by gsupstate noted that in-demand companies like Whole Foods, Apple, Westin, and Southwest located in Greenville before Columbia, and that the heavier population in the upstate had something to do with this. How can you deny that it didn't? Nobody said that population is the only factor in these decision. But as I'm sure you know, for just about all of these in-demand businesses, the initial screening process requires that a minimum population threshold be met.
Then you mentioned Charlotte (again). Please, stop with the Charlotte comparisons! Regarding Greenville getting Whole Foods and Southwest before Charlotte, you frequently like to portray posters on here as using that to say that they think Greenville is a better market. I know it might be hard for you to hear, since you view Charlotte as so superior to other markets in the Carolinas, but the reality is this: the Greenville market was more appealing than the Charlotte market for both Whole Foods and Southwest when they made the decision to locate in Greenville. I know that with 100% certainty, because if that weren't true, they would have located in Charlotte first, and not Greenville.
Now before you flip out and start talking about how Charlotte is larger, more upscale, has better malls, better companies, better people, and basically better everything than Greenville, and how anyone who says that Greenville is a more appealing market than Charlotte is misinformed and ignorant, please realize that I am not saying this as a criticism of the market in Charlotte. I am merely stating that the requirements for Whole Foods and Southwest to enter a market - which I am sure are quite specific - were not met in Charlotte at that time. With regards to Whole Foods, we know that Charlotte has probably had the proper population density and income levels in at least one area of town for the last decade or so to meet Whole Foods's requirements to open a store. But what Charlotte might not have had was the right space within that area of interest. Greenville did, and Greenville's store opened first. Good for Greenville.
Regarding Southwest, I don't know why you are hating on them. Whether you like it or not, they are a desirable airline. They are routinely the only airline to actually make a profit most years. I know you're proud of US Airways (AKA US Scare-ways) since CLT is one of their hubs, and that's great, but they are probably the worst airline with regard to on-time flights and customer service. Now that Southwest has finally started offering service to CLT, maybe the folks at US Airways will take notice of how well an airline can perform.
So let me get this straight. Columbia doesn't get stores because it's so spread out, yet others here keep saying that the upstate CSA population numbers shouldn't count because the area is so spread out without a dominant metro area. Then how does Greenville keep getting such great retailers, hotels, and restaurants to locate in the area - often times before such amazing metros like Charlotte gets them?
Let's address Charlotte first, no one is "flipping out", I use it for comparison. You are sensitive because you want to believe Grenville is tops in everything and cry the Greenville chamber cheers......it is tops in arts, education, income, growth etc..... But, as i am sure you are aware, as much as Greenville has grown, it is still miles behind a lot of areas. Again, I use Charlotte for comparison and completely understand that retailers look for specific available sites. This is completely contrary to what Gsupstate has spent years trying to prove, that Columbia is a terrible market for good retail....do you actually believe that? He used the fact that Greenville has stores before Columbia as proof that Greenville is way ahead of Columbia. I correctly pointed out, if you read my post, that many factors go into site selection. If it was only based on a certain set of metrics, Greenville would not have any high end retail with those low income levels. And, sorry, but it is true that Charlotte is light years in front of Greenville in just about everything, I have lived in both places, it is not close. I am glad that you wrote that Greenville had Whole Foods first because a specific site was not available, we agree. But, you are wrong in stating that the Greenville market was superior, it was site specific, not market specific. I am sure you don't like this, but Greenville is not the best market in SC much less when you start comparing it with Charlotte or Raleigh....please explain how Greenville would be a better market by ANY measure that is not site specific, you bolder a statement suggesting this, how? You must also agree that Gsupstate is completely wrong in his assessment that Because Greenville had these stores first, it is a superior market, it is site specific.
Southwest, don't be silly, how would you pretend to know why I don't like the airline. Simply put, it is overhyped. Low cost....LOL. I do fly US because they offer direct flights from Charlotte to most places that I need to go. Southwest does not. As for the business model, Southwest has traditionally made money, mostly due to hedging fuel prices, not exactly an operational efficiency. If you want to know why I don't like something, don't assume. You use the word probably, what are the facts? Is it he worst on time/customer service? Be more specific. And, yes, I am glad US has a hub at CLT (as it will under the new American).
With regards to "heavier population", MSA differences are not material enough that retailers would dismiss Columbia, especially with Columbia's higher income/education/banking asset levels. As I stated, the CSA number needs a huge asterisk. Greenville shows better on paper due to the areas large multinodal land area. Retailers are not interested in Cherokee County when looking at sites in Woodruff Road. But, in your attempt to make this issue about everything but reality, remember, The midlands are as populated as the upstate. Again, the differences in population are not material enough that Columbia would not meet a minimum threshold that Greenville crosses.
Greenville has the largest MSA and the largest CSA located entirely in the state of SC. Simple fact, and a fact that will make this thread go on for PAGES and PAGES simply because many fragile egos can not handle that fact.
Start reading back through and certain posters are starting to argue against their own original argument in an attempt to spin facts and or "win". Too funny, really.
Facts are facts, Greenville is both the largest MSA and largest CSA located entirely in SC.
No, these arguments go on because you like to perpetuate myths about Columbia that are completely wrong. Facts are facts, Columbia has higher income and education levels than Greenville. Greenville trails Charleston and Columbia badly.
The sad thing is how you have gone on for over 5 years on this board, urbanplanet, wiki, and many other sites about how you hate Columbia (until the mods prohibit you from posting), pathetic.
Number of miles is arbitrary. It's all about commuting patterns and they are practically nonexistent between the Savannah area and Charleston. They are present, however, in the Upstate counties which is why it is a CSA.
But, CD brings up a good point which is why these multi city CSA's can distort reality. The upstate counties commuting patterns are linked together like links in a chain. Spartanburg links to Greenville, Cherokee links to Spartanburg etc......this is a completely different dynamic than traditional areas like Charlotte, Columbia or Charleston where a large central county is surrounded by supporting counties. Even Raleigh forms a triangle which better meshes the area to form a truer definitional area. I know the numbers and how they are defined but as with all metrics, understanding how they are formed is the value, not just saying this is the definition so it must be true. Folks who just live by the numbers and say they are what they are lose a lot of money.
No place in South Carolina measures up to the fabulous Queen City. And Greenville is the worst because it has an atypical CSA configuration. I think I get it now.
No place in South Carolina measures up to the fabulous Queen City. And Greenville is the worst because it has an atypical CSA configuration. I think I get it now.
Anyone remember what this actual topic was about?
Yep, another sarcastic remark. You and Greenville seem to get bent out of shape when the Greenville you see is not reality. Greenville seems to think Greenville is a superior market to Charlotte, even bolded the statement. But hey, let's just take every number at face value, sure did work for Enron investors.
Yep, another sarcastic remark. You and Greenville seem to get bent out of shape when the Greenville you see is not reality. Greenville seems to think Greenville is a superior market to Charlotte, even bolded the statement. But hey, let's just take every number at face value, sure did work for Enron investors.
I don't think Greenville is a superior market to Charlotte, and I have never said that it is. What I did say was that when Whole Foods was looking at new markets, Greenville was more appealing to them than Charlotte. This is quite obvious since they put a store in Greenville long before Charlotte. I don't think my statement can be disputed. Please know that nobody is criticizing your precious Queen City, or saying that it is inferior to anything. In fact, I even stated that factors outside of Charlotte's control surely contributed to the decision by Whole Foods. How can you find fault with that?
Man; what's with GSP101? On the warpath again. Gotta be something wrong with that dude. Charlotte must be the greatest place on Earth. This tread had nothing to do with Charlotte, but here he goes again.
Last time I looked at a map Charlotte was in North Carolina not South Carolina, and yeah I know areas south of the border are a spill over from there, but still not in Charlotte.
But, CD brings up a good point which is why these multi city CSA's can distort reality. The upstate counties commuting patterns are linked together like links in a chain. Spartanburg links to Greenville, Cherokee links to Spartanburg etc......this is a completely different dynamic than traditional areas like Charlotte, Columbia or Charleston where a large central county is surrounded by supporting counties. Even Raleigh forms a triangle which better meshes the area to form a truer definitional area. I know the numbers and how they are defined but as with all metrics, understanding how they are formed is the value, not just saying this is the definition so it must be true. Folks who just live by the numbers and say they are what they are lose a lot of money.
I don't really understand what the arrangement of the counties have to do with anything. At the end of the day, a multinodal CSA is a multinodal CSA. The largest urbanized area, Greenville, is still in the center of it all. If the Upstate needs an asterick, then so does the Triangle and Triad. I don't think any sort of reality is distorted when you keep in mind that CSAs are only meant to quantify regional commuting patterns.
Either way, regional population figures--which can be measured in a few different ways aside from CSA--obviously factor into the decision-making process in terms of where retailers locate, as do other figures. I'm not sure if there's any way to say how much it counts in relation to the other factors however.
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