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Yes, some of the smaller areas do have a much higher density than the city itself. Check out this list for some crazy densities: List of United States cities by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Look at Union City, New York. Population of 67,000 (about twice the size of the town I grew up in), but a density of 53,000!!! Crazy.
I live in Holly Hills, which is not by any stretch of the imagination one of the most dense neighborhoods in the city (think Tower Grove East, Central West End, etc.), but even Holly Hills has a respectable population density of 9,245/sq. mi.
Actually, if you look at that list, the most dense area is 9,872.8 per square mile, so yes, yours is one of the most dense. That's what I mean when I made that comment in my earlier post about the difference between the way something feels to a person and the actual facts about it. It's okay to feel like something is bigger or smaller, regardless of how big or small it is in relation to something else. But, if you're going to claim something such as what you claimed (that there are areas that are far more dense than Holly Hills) then you need to be correct when you do so - and in this case, you were not.
Edit: Nevermind, that list in incomplete and doesn't include every area (no idea why since it's a site about the greater St. Louis area). You are correct: Tower Grove East, as an example, has a population Density of around 14,000, with a population of around 7,000. CWE has a density of ~7500. So I apologize, you were correct about Tower Grove East.
Um.... Holly Hills is not the most dense neighborhood in St. Louis City - that you would think so means you probably haven't spent a lot of time in the city. I think you're looking at statistics for St. Louis County. The population density of Tower Grove East, for instance, has a population density of 14,139/sq. mi. Tower Grove East, St. Louis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by ShadowCaver; 07-25-2009 at 10:21 PM..
No I meant the big picture. Look at it this way. Take all the cities in the U.S., however many that may be, and I would be willing to bet STL rank in the top 5%. If I graduate college in the top 5% does that make you dumb? Heck no, even though you arent the smartest you are still pretty damn smart. Get what I am saying?
No it really doesnt matter because I know where it stands regardless of what someone else thinks. We may never see eye to eye.
also to the OP, you should check out http://stlcommercemagazine.com. They have some great articles on St. Louis being an IT hub this issue. Very underrated and under the radar, but there's a great base here.
You should definitely be able to find something in this area.
As far as being single in st. louis, we could definitely use some improvements. The region seems to market itself as family-oriented and seems to forget the need to attract the vibrant educated single demographic.
When I give what seem to be negative opinions about the city, such as in my original post, I try to be respectful in doing so. If someone is uprooting their life and moving to St. Louis - that's a huge decision. That's usually - at least temporarily - an irreversible decision due to the costs and such. So, if a person is moving here, I intend on giving them my honest opinions of this city because I am a person who's had some perspective on the way some other places work - I haven't been in St. Louis my entire life. The people who have been here their entire lives might be experts on the city - they can tell you all kinds of information about where to go for certain types of foods and entertainment and things of that nature, but that person might have a sort of biased opinion due to the fact that they've never even been out of the city. It's important that someone moving here gets to hear different opinions from different types of people, otherwise that person might be surprised to find out that maybe a certain city is a very bad fit for them even though everyone painted such a rosy picture of the city with nothing but positive opinions. While I agree that some people can be over the top and downright obnoxious with their negativity towards a city, we have to remember that this isn't China or North Korea. We don't have censorship here. Not everyone is going to like your city (I love San Francisco - I know plenty of people that hate it), not everyone is going to have nice things to say about it, and that's just something people are going to have to deal with. I never really understand why certain people get so flustered over someone's opinions anyway. If a person is certain of their beliefs or feelings on a subject (be it a hometown, religion, whatever), why then do they seem to be so shaken up if someone has something bad to say? That, to me, says that particular person isn't secure about their feelings or beliefs, and so they feel the need to argue - but the reality is they're only arguing with themselves and trying to repair the damage that those other opinions caused to the weak foundation of their feeling or belief structure.
I am 24 years old. I lived in a small town in southern Illinois for 22 years, and moved to suburban St Louis (Fairview Heights, IL) in September 2007. In April 2008, I moved to the city. In May of 2009, I moved down the street in the same St Louis city neighborhood. The town I am from is a town of 7,000 and the nearest "booming metropolitan" has about 22,000, and it's 35 miles away. That's where everyone goes to go "clubbing" and shopping.
You have to understand that while you may have been born and raised here, so this is just "so so" living to you, to some people, St Louis is a great place to live. In fact, to someone like myself who has family 90 miles away and will never move further away than STL for that very reason, St Louis is a dream to live in. Yep, I said it. I understand that St Louis is probably not in the top 10 most desirable cities to live - in fact, ST Louis might not be in the top 25 most desirable "cities" to live - but that doesn't mean that you can't live here and enjoy it. You seem surprised that people will jump to the defense of this city when you go on one of your I'm-going-to-say-St-Louis-sucks-but-not-actually-say-it-that-way rants. Yes, as a transplant from a small town, I do indeed love St Louis. I consider myself a bit of an urban booster, even if I haven't lived "in several places including Europe." Yeah, I guess at the end of the day I'm just a hick from southern Illinois, but I love this city and will defend it every chance I get.
I am not here to tell people that St Louis is the greatest place on earth, or even in the United States - maybe not even the Midwest. But when people ask about living here, I am going to speak from my personal experience as a transplant, which the OP of such a post in which I respond will be...and not just inject negativity and "the grass is greener" bias. "Nah, move to Chicago, because I have lived elsewhere and St Louis is not the best place I have ever lived."
While I don't love the town I came from in southern Illinois, I'm not hanging out on the Illinois forum to put it down every chance I get, which to some of us, including myself - that seems like exactly what you are doing. 1 in 10 posts being "kind of not negative" doesn't count.
To suggest that people are defending their city because they are insecure is a bit silly, in my opinion. Your constant trashing of St Louis doesn't make me love it any less or make me lose any sleep at night, I promise you. But I will go to bat for it.
Don't take it personally when I defend the city because I love it here, just like I should probably work on my taking it personally when people trash the city - over, and over, and over. And over.
I'm 22 and have worked for several different companies large and small within IT. I started as PC support but I switched over to the networking side of things recently. You shouldn't have to much trouble finding IT jobs in your specific market. The nice thing about St. Louis when it comes to IT is that it's actually a pretty underrated market here compared to other places like Dallas or possibly ATL. Not to many people associate STL with IT but there are plenty of opportunities as long as you're persistent and look in the right places.
I'm 22 and have worked for several different companies large and small within IT. I started as PC support but I switched over to the networking side of things recently. You shouldn't have to much trouble finding IT jobs in your specific market. The nice thing about St. Louis when it comes to IT is that it's actually a pretty underrated market here compared to other places like Dallas or possibly ATL. Not to many people associate STL with IT but there are plenty of opportunities as long as you're persistent and look in the right places.
Thanks, but IT and software engineering are distinctly different fields.
Yes, we have a couple IT people at my current project, but they don't write code. They do hardware/network maintenance and upgrades and occasionally write some scripts for system configuration & management, but that has little to do with solving software problems and using the years of knowledge and hard work I put in to get where I am today as a programmer. I'm not trying to belittle IT - it's an important part of *every* company, but it's not software development, which is what software engineers / programmers are for. There is a noticeable difference in salary between software engineers and information tech positions for a reason - they are different college degrees and there are far fewer qualified & experienced programmers available.
In short, I'm looking for companies that specifically development software packages, databases, simulation systems, development tools, or even complex web-driven applications. I suspect there are FAR fewer of these jobs available than IT jobs, since nearly every large company will need an IT team just to maintain the computer systems & websites, but most companies don't develop their own software.
Thanks, but IT and software engineering are distinctly different fields.
In short, I'm looking for companies that specifically development software packages, databases, simulation systems, development tools, or even complex web-driven applications. I suspect there are FAR fewer of these jobs available than IT jobs, since nearly every large company will need an IT team just to maintain the computer systems & websites, but most companies don't develop their own software.
As someone who went to school and received a degree in Computer Science and as someone who has worked with developing databases and the means to access them, I agree that there is a difference. However, when the average person says IT, they include us. Heck go on Careerbuilder or Monster and you'll see that software engineering, programming, etc are all under the Information Technology (IT) label.
So that being said, there is no need to get all defensive and at the same time have a superiority complex when someone calls you IT. The way the field is going now, a web developer is pretty much the exact same as a software engineer because most large companies looking for a web developer are actually looking for someone who has worked with .NET, Oracle/MS SQL Server, PHP, JavaScript, etc. and not just HTML or Dreamweaver.
Routing networks takes a ton of hard work, certifications, and experience just like the programming side (which I don't have a ton of yet). That goes with any aspect of IT or just about any other job in corporate America in my opinion. You should try searching some of the bigger Fortune 500 companies here or just check out dice.com where you can find a ton of software development contracts. Oh by the way all the "Information Techs" I work with make close to or well over over 6 figures, it's all about finding that niche in IT if you ask me.
^ You are comparing the largest cities in the United States AND THE WORLD with St. Louis.
In that case, yeah, I guess we're a "small city." There are only 3 big cities in the United States, apparently.
You ask "Have you ever been to LA or Seattle?"
I ask "Have you ever been to a small town?"
I am from a town of 7,000 people in the real southern Illinois (south of Jefferson County IL). St. Louis is a big city.
Well of course someone from a town of 7K thinks St. Louis is a big city. But you are comparing rural towns to cities. In the subject of cities, St. Louis is a small city. It's still a city. And that's okay. Nothing's wrong with that. Doesn't mean there's less to do, etc. Some people like that and are looking to move there (as evidenced by posts on this site).
Thanks, but IT and software engineering are distinctly different fields.
Yes, we have a couple IT people at my current project, but they don't write code. They do hardware/network maintenance and upgrades and occasionally write some scripts for system configuration & management, but that has little to do with solving software problems and using the years of knowledge and hard work I put in to get where I am today as a programmer. I'm not trying to belittle IT - it's an important part of *every* company, but it's not software development, which is what software engineers / programmers are for. There is a noticeable difference in salary between software engineers and information tech positions for a reason - they are different college degrees and there are far fewer qualified & experienced programmers available.
In short, I'm looking for companies that specifically development software packages, databases, simulation systems, development tools, or even complex web-driven applications. I suspect there are FAR fewer of these jobs available than IT jobs, since nearly every large company will need an IT team just to maintain the computer systems & websites, but most companies don't develop their own software.
Wow, you got a little defensive here...... The last time I checked software development and software engineering has almost always been grouped together with Information Technology jobs. The term IT is extremely broad. For example the jobs listed below can be found under Information Technology on almost all job search sites, ect.
Network systems and data communications analysts
Computer software engineers, applications
Computer software engineers, systems software
Network and computer systems administrators
Database administrators
Computer systems analysts
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