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You just listed a number of negatives about mass transit and managed to spin them as "positive".
1. You are claiming that making mass transit to the Trop is quicker than driving. I've never heard that argument before. Getting in and out of the Trop quickly has to be the 1st or 2nd easiest experience of the 30 baseball stadiums in the MLB.
2. "Cheap train ride"? This goes to show that you know nothing about other light rail systems that have been put in place. The fully-loaded cost of a ride is mostly paid by taxpayers, not riders. How would it help the Pinellas and Clearwater economies when you have to drastically increase sales and property taxes? Spending $3 billion or so (a typical starting price tag for some of the systems you listed), plus ongoing annual losses in perpetuity is definitely not "cheap". Go look at the financials for the Tampa Trolley and get back to us about how "cheap" it is.
3. Lowers DUIs? How exactly would this work? You stagger 2 miles to the light rail station, and A. find out it's closed for the night, or B. take it to your nearest stop and stagger the 5 miles home from there, or C. drive your car home that you left at the park-n-ride. Genius!
4. The ONLY potential path, one that runs to the airport, will single-handedly decimate the already poor taxi service in the Tampa Bay area. I'd rather have somewhat-poor taxi service than none at all. Why not just run a bunch of free express shuttles? I'd bet it's cheaper than $3 billion, even after all the lawsuits from the taxi companies.
5. A system to connect all of the places you listed would cost in the tens of billions and would probably be ridden by a few thousand people per day. Try the math and see if it works.
I think you may be confusing the 2,000 square mile area of Hillsbourough + Tampa Bay + Pinellas with the 200 square mile area of Chicago. And even with a half billion riders per year, Chicago cannot even make their system work, as they are forced to annually raise rates and cut service.
We saw these same arguments more than a decade ago to justify the money-hemorrhaging Tampa Trolley. They turned out to be flat-out lies (convenience, speed, cost, etc). Let's not fall for it again on a scale that is 100x the size.
1. My argument was that it would improve trop attendance. Its easy to get in and out of because no one is there, and no one is there because people across the bridges don't want to make that drive in traffic.
2. Compare the tax money you would pay to the gas you would save by taking public transit.. as you said "do the math"
3. Option is to take a much cheaper taxi from the stop than it would be to take all the way to the destination. Yes it is Genius to not let drunk people get behind the wheel, thank you.
4. Taxi service will never go away, we could have 1 taxi company and get by fine if we had light rail.
5. I'm glad you can predict the number of riders, wish I could see into the future. The number of riders would stimulate the economy in other areas, you could work out a pay as you go until its paid off system like our toll roads. Financial experts have come up with kookier ways to easily take care of these hurdles.
Oh well, I guess we will just wait for Orlando to do it and keep passing us up as a progressive city. Let's watch where the jobs and money start moving to then.
The people will still come because we have the coast... and very open for development as far as area is concerned, I happened to drive off Racetrack and went west etc and it was pretty new developments there with plenty of places to build. Guess the fight would be at the zoning level n the crazies who want nothing to be built... at all.. but Tampa has space just needs transportation to come up to par,,,
1. My argument was that it would improve trop attendance. Its easy to get in and out of because no one is there, and no one is there because people across the bridges don't want to make that drive in traffic.
2. Compare the tax money you would pay to the gas you would save by taking public transit.. as you said "do the math"
3. Option is to take a much cheaper taxi from the stop than it would be to take all the way to the destination. Yes it is Genius to not let drunk people get behind the wheel, thank you.
4. Taxi service will never go away, we could have 1 taxi company and get by fine if we had light rail.
5. I'm glad you can predict the number of riders, wish I could see into the future. The number of riders would stimulate the economy in other areas, you could work out a pay as you go until its paid off system like our toll roads. Financial experts have come up with kookier ways to easily take care of these hurdles.
Oh well, I guess we will just wait for Orlando to do it and keep passing us up as a progressive city. Let's watch where the jobs and money start moving to then.
1. I'm not sure how often you drive to the Trop, but you can get from TPA to the Trop most game days in 20-25 minutes. I commuted by that route for years and there are absolutely no traffic issues going from Tampa to St Pete over the Howard Frankland. That argument is moot.
2. The inconvenience costs negate any gasoline savings. The poor liberals who try to use this line of reasoning make the incorrect assumption that people value their wasted time at zero dollars an hour. That's why people with jobs don't take public transit unless the costs (such as $50/day parking in downtown Chicago) force you to do it -- for Tampa Bay, with its miles and miles of free and low-cost parking, it's just not worth it.
You must be a student, unemployed or retired if you think someone trying to get home from work to spend a few precious hours with his family would be willing to waste an hour or two in extra commuting time to save $5 a day. If so, why aren't the buses full?
4. Because Tampa Bay is so spread out, there is little demand for taxi service to get around, unless you are heading to/from the airport. The airport trips are what keep taxi companies in business, since it is a HUGE portion of their business. Take that away and taxi service all but disappears. (see: continuing saga of the Las Vegas Monorail) Besides, how would the drunk get to/from the light rail without cab service?
5. Higher taxes to pay for foolish ideas like these will damage a local economy, not improve it. It is a very well-documented fact that government entities and their "consultants" outright lie about future ridership. How do I know? Because every single estimate for mass transit ridership grossly overestimates the number. Every. Single. Time. I will refer you to numerous studies done by Wendell Cox and Joseph Vranich, which have studied the bold lies repeatedly told by proponents to get their mass transit projects. Here is a recent one:
Go back and look at the Tampa Trolley estimates. I implore you. Check those out and reply after you do. You'll either laugh or cry at the ridiculous assumptions.
California and Orlando can spend all the money they want, but I know they aren't going to get Florida state taxpayer dollars to flush down those money-losing ratholes. Gov. Scott saved the state from a potential state income tax by vetoing the high speed rail project. I can't wait to see what otherworldly "estimates" the light rail gang will cook up when it comes to a referendum to spend other people's money.
Tampa/St. Pete/Clearwater is a little different sized metro than Greensboro/High Point/Winston-Salem
As of 2012, the Piedmont Triad has an estimated population of 1,611,243 making it the 33rd largest metropolitan area in the United States, Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater is 2,823,938, putting it at No. 19. While its certainly more populous, it is in the same scope of services, neither is a small or large city and those numbers need to rake in the outlying areas for both. I also question how many in that number are full time residents of the state.
1. My argument was that it would improve trop attendance. Its easy to get in and out of because no one is there, and no one is there because people across the bridges don't want to make that drive in traffic.
2. Compare the tax money you would pay to the gas you would save by taking public transit.. as you said "do the math"
3. Option is to take a much cheaper taxi from the stop than it would be to take all the way to the destination. Yes it is Genius to not let drunk people get behind the wheel, thank you.
4. Taxi service will never go away, we could have 1 taxi company and get by fine if we had light rail.
5. I'm glad you can predict the number of riders, wish I could see into the future. The number of riders would stimulate the economy in other areas, you could work out a pay as you go until its paid off system like our toll roads. Financial experts have come up with kookier ways to easily take care of these hurdles.
Oh well, I guess we will just wait for Orlando to do it and keep passing us up as a progressive city. Let's watch where the jobs and money start moving to then.
This analysis fails for me. I wouldn't take light rail to work, nightlife or the Trop. My commute's only a few miles, light traffic the whole way, and I doubt there'd be a stop right in front of my office. There are a few dozen bars/restaurants within walking distance of my house, and cabs are only about $5 home. And I live ~3 miles from the Trop, there's no traffic getting there and you can park very close for 5 bucks.
Of course, that's just me. But this gets to a more general issue, which is that people who choose not to live in convenient places should have an inconvenient time getting around. And that's where the comparison to NYC, Philly, etc. doesn't work. In those towns, so many people want to live in the convenient places that they've become prohibitively expensive for darn near everybody. And so many people have to go to urban centers that the roads are simply inadequate for commute volumes. And even if you get your car to your office, there's nowhere to park it or parking is prohibitively expensive. In those towns, without mass transportation, people would literally not be able to go to work. It's not comparable here. Here, living in a super-convenient place is not expensive, the existing roads provide easy access to downtown areas, and there's ample parking when you get there. I realize that the bay area has a lot of residents, but many are not here year-round, and many more do not work. This is a much smaller place than the population number suggest when it comes to commuting.
Anyway, what I'd like to see us do is actually max out the infrastructure we have before we start building more infrastructure. Bear in mind that adding infrastructure encourages sprawl. You build a line from downtown Tampa to Westchase and you'll see development in Westchase and further out, as those locations become more convenient. Encouraging sprawl is fine if you've maxed out an area and need to sprawl away from it, but we definitely have not done that here. We need more residential and commercial development in the downtown areas before we need more transportation infrastructure.
Don't get me wrong, I wish there were a way that more of the bay area were more convenient for me. For me, that'd be a party line running until well after last call between downtown St. Pete, SoHo and Clearwater Beach. That would be awesome. But that's not going to happen. So I picked the place that's most convenient and, when I have to travel, I deal with it. And it's really not a big deal to get around here.
Also, everybody's got an opinion, but "progressive" is not a complimentary term in my view; and anybody who wants inland Florida can have it...
This analysis fails for me. I wouldn't take light rail to work, nightlife or the Trop. My commute's only a few miles, light traffic the whole way, and I doubt there'd be a stop right in front of my office. There are a few dozen bars/restaurants within walking distance of my house, and cabs are only about $5 home. And I live ~3 miles from the Trop, there's no traffic getting there and you can park very close for 5 bucks.
Of course, that's just me. But this gets to a more general issue, which is that people who choose not to live in convenient places should have an inconvenient time getting around. And that's where the comparison to NYC, Philly, etc. doesn't work. In those towns, so many people want to live in the convenient places that they've become prohibitively expensive for darn near everybody. And so many people have to go to urban centers that the roads are simply inadequate for commute volumes. And even if you get your car to your office, there's nowhere to park it or parking is prohibitively expensive. In those towns, without mass transportation, people would literally not be able to go to work. It's not comparable here. Here, living in a super-convenient place is not expensive, the existing roads provide easy access to downtown areas, and there's ample parking when you get there. I realize that the bay area has a lot of residents, but many are not here year-round, and many more do not work. This is a much smaller place than the population number suggest when it comes to commuting.
Anyway, what I'd like to see us do is actually max out the infrastructure we have before we start building more infrastructure. Bear in mind that adding infrastructure encourages sprawl. You build a line from downtown Tampa to Westchase and you'll see development in Westchase and further out, as those locations become more convenient. Encouraging sprawl is fine if you've maxed out an area and need to sprawl away from it, but we definitely have not done that here. We need more residential and commercial development in the downtown areas before we need more transportation infrastructure.
Don't get me wrong, I wish there were a way that more of the bay area were more convenient for me. For me, that'd be a party line running until well after last call between downtown St. Pete, SoHo and Clearwater Beach. That would be awesome. But that's not going to happen. So I picked the place that's most convenient and, when I have to travel, I deal with it. And it's really not a big deal to get around here.
Also, everybody's got an opinion, but "progressive" is not a complimentary term in my view; and anybody who wants inland Florida can have it...
Exactly. Tampa will stay a medium populated, suburban sprawl city with limited growth. What's wrong with that? You want growth, variety, and public transportation? Move to another city.
Exactly. Tampa will stay a medium populated, suburban sprawl city with limited growth. What's wrong with that? You want growth, variety, and public transportation? Move to another city.
Nothing if you like call centers, McDonald's and WalMart.
Yesterday's Tampa Bay Times did a story on the upcoming referendum (2014) for the Pinellas Light Rail. For a single run from downtown Clearwater to downtown St Pete, the current estimate is $1.7 billion. Since these projects are always a factor of 2 or 3 higher, we're looking at many billions for a single line.
People HATE the idea of wasting $50 million on an unneccessary Lens project. This would be like taking the money for 35 Lens projects and setting it on fire. I can't imagine anyone who actually pays taxes is going to vote for this.
Now, take that number and add a new line to every Congressional district. The airport? Of course. Downtown Tampa? Sure. Brandon? Why not? Westchase? Carrollwood? Lutz? New Tampa? Of course! South Tampa? Don't know where we'll put it, but why the heck not?
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