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Speaking as a professional counselor, this would be just as great a travesty on counseling as a profession as is the issues on education.
Counseling is a practice that augments people's ability to change. Forcing someone, child or adult, to go into a counseling scenario when they have no motivation to change, is a HUGE WASTE OF TIME.
I see lots of kids, for whom others who have no idea how counseling is done, assign to me to effect change. Many times I spend a huge amount of time at first trying to get them to understand that they should change. Once I'm able to get them to understand that and then to actually want to change, then the effort becomes amazingly easy and very effective.
Forcing people into proscribed counseling to fix inappropriate behaviors only works if the person has some reason to change their behaviors. A better choice is a course of Behavior Management, and sometimes a course of behavior management followed up or concurrent with counseling.
Z
Unfortunately, you are correct. As long as these parents get their egos stroked because their child reads Shakesphere at 2 1/2, they will continue to treat parenthood as a competitive sport with their kids paying the price.
Seriously, we didn't even teach dd#1 the alphabet until the summer before she started kindergarten. Dd#2 learned it earlier but only because big sis was in school so there was a trickledown effect.
I agree that forced counseling wouldn't work. This was a dream scenario as it's not happening anyway. There really should be a way to convince parents that their children's accomplisments are no reflection on them. I have a dd who plays the piano, beautifully, but the only credit I get is for driving her to lessons and paying for them. The rest belongs to her not me. She did it.
Every now and again, we meet a student we can make a difference for and we try. However, most will end up with pretty much the same education no matter who stands in front of that classroom.
First let me say I AM a classroom teacher at a school with huge poverty numbers. I completely understand the influence a students' prior experiences (or lack of) and home life has on their education. But guess what? I have absolutely no control over that. Nor on how involved their parents are, or how horrible their morning went, or whether they are abused or not, whether they are homeless, etc.
I DO have control over what goes on in my classroom everyday, and I do not agree with you Ivorytickler that it doesn't matter who stands in front of the classroom. I've had students who came from dire, disgusting backgrounds rise above it and succeed. Why? Because they had at least 3 adults in their lives - all of them teachers - who believed in them and cared about their education.
My current school is in transition. We have a large number of students from scary homes, and our test scores are down. Our 3rd year principal has asked us as teachers to increase our instructional time - not our day, just reduce recess and increase class time. Last week, we had 3 teachers with 30+ years retire; other teachers aren't happy with it either. But if we continue to do what we've always done, we'll get the same results! Why are we so scared of change?
I have the following quote posted in my planning book - and I read it every morning.
“I've come to the frightening conclusioin that I am the decisive element in the classroom. It's my daily mood that makes the weather. As a teacher, I possess a tremendous power to make a child's life miserable or joyous. I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration. I can humiliate or humor, hurt or heal. In all situations, it is my response that decides whether a crisis will be escalated or de-escalated and a child humanized or de-humanized.” Dr. Haim Ginott
First let me say I AM a classroom teacher at a school with huge poverty numbers. I completely understand the influence a students' prior experiences (or lack of) and home life has on their education. But guess what? I have absolutely no control over that. Nor on how involved their parents are, or how horrible their morning went, or whether they are abused or not, whether they are homeless, etc.
I DO have control over what goes on in my classroom everyday, and I do not agree with you Ivorytickler that it doesn't matter who stands in front of the classroom. I've had students who came from dire, disgusting backgrounds rise above it and succeed. Why? Because they had at least 3 adults in their lives - all of them teachers - who believed in them and cared about their education.
My current school is in transition. We have a large number of students from scary homes, and our test scores are down. Our 3rd year principal has asked us as teachers to increase our instructional time - not our day, just reduce recess and increase class time. Last week, we had 3 teachers with 30+ years retire; other teachers aren't happy with it either. But if we continue to do what we've always done, we'll get the same results! Why are we so scared of change?
I have the following quote posted in my planning book - and I read it every morning.
“I've come to the frightening conclusioin that I am the decisive element in the classroom. It's my daily mood that makes the weather. As a teacher, I possess a tremendous power to make a child's life miserable or joyous. I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration. I can humiliate or humor, hurt or heal. In all situations, it is my response that decides whether a crisis will be escalated or de-escalated and a child humanized or de-humanized.” Dr. Haim Ginott
I was worried that there were no more real teachers left. This is EXACTLY what I've been talking about.
Finally, a teacher who takes responsibility for her classroom.
First let me say I AM a classroom teacher at a school with huge poverty numbers. I completely understand the influence a students' prior experiences (or lack of) and home life has on their education. But guess what? I have absolutely no control over that. Nor on how involved their parents are, or how horrible their morning went, or whether they are abused or not, whether they are homeless, etc.
I DO have control over what goes on in my classroom everyday, and I do not agree with you Ivorytickler that it doesn't matter who stands in front of the classroom. I've had students who came from dire, disgusting backgrounds rise above it and succeed. Why? Because they had at least 3 adults in their lives - all of them teachers - who believed in them and cared about their education.
My current school is in transition. We have a large number of students from scary homes, and our test scores are down. Our 3rd year principal has asked us as teachers to increase our instructional time - not our day, just reduce recess and increase class time. Last week, we had 3 teachers with 30+ years retire; other teachers aren't happy with it either. But if we continue to do what we've always done, we'll get the same results! Why are we so scared of change?
I have the following quote posted in my planning book - and I read it every morning.
“I've come to the frightening conclusioin that I am the decisive element in the classroom. It's my daily mood that makes the weather. As a teacher, I possess a tremendous power to make a child's life miserable or joyous. I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration. I can humiliate or humor, hurt or heal. In all situations, it is my response that decides whether a crisis will be escalated or de-escalated and a child humanized or de-humanized.” Dr. Haim Ginott
First of all, I am not saying that teachers don't make a difference. I'm staying that, for the most part, it doesn't matter which teacher is in the front of the classroom. While there are those rare stand outs, most of us are interchangeable. We do our jobs well and that does benefit our students but they'd do just as well with the next teacher over.
I believe bad teachers can have profound effect but I also believe that kids are resilient (not excusing bad teachers, simply pointing out that most of us survive them). I had a horrible teacher for 4th and 5th grades. She managed to take an A student who was described as "an intellectual sponge" by her 3rd grade teacher and turn her into a D student. I was in college before I rediscovered that I actually do have a brain. I quit trying after two years under a teacher I couldn't win with. Yet, I succeeded anyway. Either: a) the good teachers I had along the way undid what hte bad one did or b) environmental factors, such as genetics, resulted in an override program.
I do believe it is my responsibility to do my job and do it well but I'm not fool enough to think I'm the only person who could stand in front of that room and do it well. Most teachers, in a child's life, willl be interchangeable. Results will be, pretty much, the same no matter which one they have.
Would it have made a difference if I'd never had Mrs. C? It, definitely, would have made my public school career happier but once I got out of that system, I was able to find myself. Her problem with me is that I'm not typical. In college, I found they liked that.
I had a handful of teachers along the way who recognized that there was more than that D but none were able to coax it out. It was my Algebra III teacher who hit the nail on the head and realized that it would take time for me to let the student I could be out again. She made it a point to tell me that I'm "...a why person in a what world." She told me I could do anything if I took the time to understand it first and she was right. I floundered in a system that expected me to memorize and regurgitate and it really wouldn't have matter which teacher you put in front of that room. The end result would have, most likely, been the same.
To a large extent, I'm not who I am because of my teachers. I'm who I am in spite of them. My kids are the same way. Dd#1 isn't at the top of her class because she had great teachers (and she's had some). She's at the top of her class because that's who she is. She was born that way just as I was born this way. My pediatrician told my mother I was retarded because, when I was 2, he gave me a pen and paper and instead of trying to draw something, I dismantled the pen. I graduated near the top of my engineering class (#1 for my major, #5 in my graduating class). Turned out I just like to see why things work the way they do. I am far more a product of the genes I was born with than of my school environment.
I will agree with you that we hold power over the quality of a child's day or even year.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-15-2010 at 10:08 PM..
I do believe it is my responsibility to do my job and do it well but I'm not fool enough to think I'm the only person who could stand in front of that room and do it well. Most teachers, in a child's life, willl be interchangeable. Results will be, pretty much, the same no matter which one they have.
I agree that most teachers who care can positively influence students in the classroom. I reread my post and I didn't state that "I believe I'm the only person who could stand in front of that room and do it well." But can we agree to disagree as adults in the classroom and not call anyone a fool?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Teaching chemistry I have to really watch the students prone to use the excuse they were just inquisitive. Sorry, it doesn't give you the right to mix test tube C with test tube A when I told you that was the one thing you are were not to do. Sadly, I cut labs out of my curriculum this year because I didn't want to deal with certain students and their tendency to not listen and do what they want. So no one got to do those labs.
This one is near and dear to my heart because I spent much time investigating alternatives. In our school, we have plenty of students who make poor behavioral choices, but we were seeing formerly good students who were starting to misbehave as well. So in a graduate class, I did extensive research on mass discipline, where you take away privileges from all students because of the behavior of a few. All of the research out there and my original research found it is counterproductive because it causes students who choose good behavior to start to choose bad behavior because their consequences are the same (removing privileges, etc.) regardless of their choices. I know...I know....I have teachers in my building who say it is too difficult to notice who behaves well or to divide the class and allow some privileges to some kids and not to others. Yes it takes more time and attention, but since my discovery, I take the time to notice and provide consequences for only students who make poor choices, and my classroom management has improved dramatically. Not to mention my good students no longer suffer consequences for someone else's behavior.
Why should good students behave if they are going to suffer the same consequences? One teacher argued mass discipline made good students mad so they would help keep bad students in line. It's not their job to do that.....they are kids. It's my job.
First of all, I am not saying that teachers don't make a difference. I'm staying that, for the most part, it doesn't matter which teacher is in the front of the classroom. While there are those rare stand outs, most of us are interchangeable.
In other words, most teachers are mediocre and only a few are actually good teachers. I will agree with you on that.
Quote:
I believe bad teachers can have profound effect but I also believe that kids are resilient (not excusing bad teachers, simply pointing out that most of us survive them).
I disagree. A bad teacher will have a detrimental affect on how that child learns until they are no longer in school.
Quote:
... I rediscovered that I actually do have a brain. I quit trying after two years under a teacher I couldn't win with. Yet, I succeeded anyway. Either: a) the good teachers I had along the way undid what hte bad one did or b) environmental factors, such as genetics, resulted in an override program.
In other words, most teachers are mediocre and only a few are actually good teachers. I will agree with you on that.I disagree. A bad teacher will have a detrimental affect on how that child learns until they are no longer in school.Ahem, genes are not environmental.
I have to admit that this forum is an eye-opener. I incorrectly assumed that education across states in the USA was pretty much the same.
While I don't agree with the extreme view of NOEXCUSES, I've come to the conclusion that many if not most districts seem to be using education practices developed in the 1800's and not changed much since then.
However, I am dismayed to see that to a large extent the extent of using these practices is rather isolated when looked across the board.
I am also somewhat dismayed at the lack of required teacher preparation and the lack of inservicing of teachers by their employers. I had assumed that most states were like the extensive teaching credentialing requirements of Pennsylvania. Once again, having 3/4 of my entire 40 year career in a very focused forward looking district, I tended to believe that every district or county was providing inservicing to keep its educators focused on the very best of research on effective methods of teaching children.
I am not seeing that here to the extent that I expected. And I am beginning to understand why politicians and others in the general public keep talking about removing "bad" teachers.
Unfortunately, they should be talking about removing bad districts, since most teachers won't know the best methods unless they get the training, and the training is not generally available at the university level since the Ivory Tower Education Structure is generally about 15-20 years behind the research times. The training comes from the districts bringing it in.
And I am beginning to understand why politicians and others in the general public keep talking about removing "bad" teachers.
Zarathu
Most school districts have policies that DO allow them to remove bad teachers - even teachers WITH tenure. Our district removed 3 bad teachers this year, and placed at least 2 others on "remediation" next year for improvement or dismissal.
I've taught in 3 districts and all 3 had a policy whereby even tenured teachers could be removed. It DOES require attention, intervention and action on the part of building principals (something bad principals often don't want to do). But it IS possible. And I will say honestly that I've never seen a good teacher removed by this policy. I think the extent of documentation required prevents it. I've seen cases where students who didn't particularly like a teacher conjured up untrue stories, but again the policies require proof of incompetence and the teacher was vindicated.
I agree that most teachers who care can positively influence students in the classroom. I reread my post and I didn't state that "I believe I'm the only person who could stand in front of that room and do it well." But can we agree to disagree as adults in the classroom and not call anyone a fool?
This one is near and dear to my heart because I spent much time investigating alternatives. In our school, we have plenty of students who make poor behavioral choices, but we were seeing formerly good students who were starting to misbehave as well. So in a graduate class, I did extensive research on mass discipline, where you take away privileges from all students because of the behavior of a few. All of the research out there and my original research found it is counterproductive because it causes students who choose good behavior to start to choose bad behavior because their consequences are the same (removing privileges, etc.) regardless of their choices. I know...I know....I have teachers in my building who say it is too difficult to notice who behaves well or to divide the class and allow some privileges to some kids and not to others. Yes it takes more time and attention, but since my discovery, I take the time to notice and provide consequences for only students who make poor choices, and my classroom management has improved dramatically. Not to mention my good students no longer suffer consequences for someone else's behavior.
Why should good students behave if they are going to suffer the same consequences? One teacher argued mass discipline made good students mad so they would help keep bad students in line. It's not their job to do that.....they are kids. It's my job.
The problem is one of safety. If I cannot manage the students with behavior problems in the lab, I can't do that lab. Even with choosing safer labs, we still have issues like the student who squirted indicator down my back the other day. That could have been 6.0 molar sulfuric acid had I done the lab the book called for at that point. I'd be in the hospital now if that were the case. I deemed it unsafe to have strong acids out in the lab and I think I was right on that call. I'm surprised this student will be coming back into my classroom after what he pulled. I would think squirting anything in a chemistry lab on someone in the lab would be an IMMEDIATE expulsion. When you think of what this could have been, it's scary. Unfortunately, the worst that's going to happen to a student pulling something like this is an in house suspension. The only reason this student got an out of school suspension is he has so many priors that he had been warned that one more would get him a week out of school.
I agree with you that good students should not suffer because of the bad but reality is I have to keep them all, and myself, safe so there is no choice. Safety has to be my first priority. The school doesn't allow me to kick students out of the lab until AFTER they do something inappropriate and with over 30 students in some of my classes, many times I don't see things happen. I didn't even realize that this student sprayed the back of my shirt with a liquid. I never felt it. He would have gone unpunished except that one student came forward and ratted him out. If I don't see it and no one reports it, they get away with it which is why they keep doing things.
I've found chemicals sprayed on the walls and my desk after labs, we had an incident where someone put a chemical into the hood of another student's jacket, students spill things and leave the spill for someone else to clean up, one group walked away from an acid on a burner and let it burn, while I was tending to a couple of girls who had spilled acid on themselves, someone stole the magneisium I had out for the lab, anytime bunsen burners are used, I have to watch to make sure that things aren't set on fire....the list goes on and on. I cannot compromise safety and that means that some labs will not be done.
Here, everyone takes chemistry whehter they have the self discipline to do a lab or not. Unfortunately, they are the ones who dictate what labs I can and cannot do. I know certain students can't resist squirting other students with chemicals I have out so I have to make sure nothing is out that can harm anyone. I, recently, did a buffer lab where I held the bottle of acid the entire hour and dispensed it as needed instead of letting the students get their own. I really need two or three of me (or security cameras in my room which, for some strange reason, they will not do).
I do look for alternative labs whenever possible but it's not always possible. Sometimes, I have to resort to doing the lab as a demo or showing a video of the lab being done if I can't do it as a demo safely. This is why I want a tracked system with real prerequisites for entry into the upper track and help in the form of another adult in the room for the lower track.
In other words, most teachers are mediocre and only a few are actually good teachers. I will agree with you on that.I disagree. A bad teacher will have a detrimental affect on how that child learns until they are no longer in school.Ahem, genes are not environmental.
I agree that bad teachers have impact while students are in school. However, I also think we have the ability to rise above that. I am not justifying bad teachers. Simply observing that the end result doesn't seem to change because of them or because of good ones in most cases. In some cases, yes on both counts. If I were a different person, I might not have overcome what Mrs. C. did to my faith in myself. I quit trying after two years under her and didn't start trying again until I went to college. She convinced me I was stupid. Fortunately, college convinced me I'm not.
She, undoubtedly, had an impact through high school. However, while I would have had a better public school experience had I not had her, I don't think the end result would have been different. Just the journey. I would have liked for the journey to have been different but it, obviously, wasn't necessary.
My dd has a teacher who doesn't teach right now. I tell her that this is a life lesson in dealing with people who don't do their job and you don't like. I tell her that, someday, she'll have a boss who doesn't do his job and she doesn't like but that will not excuse her from doing her job. So she studies that much harder at home to make up for one bad teacher (tenured so they can't get rid of her which is really unfortunate because the teacher they laid off, whom she replaced, was excellent.). I wish it were different but nothing will change it so we'll use it as a life lesson.
Genes are a non school related factor and they often track with other things like educated parents so there is an environmental aspect to genes too. The fact I was raised by two parents who had very high IQ's (which directly impacts my IQ) means something.
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I am far more a product of the genes I was born with than of my school environment.
I will agree with you on that.
I'd be in the hospital now if that were the case. I deemed it unsafe to have strong acids out in the lab and I think I was right on that call. I'm surprised this student will be coming back into my classroom after what he pulled. I would think squirting anything in a chemistry lab on someone in the lab would be an IMMEDIATE expulsion. When you think of what this could have been, it's scary. Unfortunately, the worst that's going to happen to a student pulling something like this is an in house suspension. The only reason this student got an out of school suspension is he has so many priors that he had been warned that one more would get him a week out of school. 
