Is it really illegal for county highway departments in Tennessee to add traffic lights? (Columbia: house, maintenance)

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

From this article...

"...we can't do traffic lights out in the county."

Is it true that the county highway departments can't add traffic lights? I know city roads can, and TDOT can on state highways even in unincorporated areas, but I've indeed never seen any "out in the county" except on very large highways.

NOTE: This IS relevant to Tennessee specifically. It is seemingly not a nationwide thing. See spoiler for details.

Spoiler

It becomes irrelevant in Virginia, where every road is a state road.

It becomes irrelevant in the District of Columbia, where 100% of the area is incorporated.

It becomes irrelevant in Hawaii, where the only incorporated area is the City and County of Honolulu, yet Hilo (and surely some smaller unincorporated cities) have traffic lights on entirely non-state-road intersections.

Reasons I'm furious with this state-level restriction (if it really exists):
--The intersection mentioned above really NEEDS either a traffic light or a roundabout.
--Even if it wasn't a problem for the above intersection, surely several other mainly-urban counties have faced this problem before. Even Rutherford, Montgomery, Hamilton, Knox and Shelby Counties have unincorporated areas (Davidson doesn't because it's a city-county).
--It's just a sign of corruption in general. Isn't Tennessee, for all its errors, known for granting strong home rule powers? This basically contradicts that.
--Even if they have reasons for the above, it would mean TDOT would have to get involved and add a state highway crossing these problematic intersections; as if they didn't already need one crossing that very intersection anyways!

P.S.: Do you think this supposed restriction on the county road departments should be lifted? Why or why not?

[Wileykid]

When a city incorporates, they in effect become responsible only for maintaining all non-state roadways within the incorporated area, and relieving the county of such maintenance. They collect taxes for that purpose. What you are suggesting is that city residents should pay for county issues, reducing the amount of money the city has to fix issues in the in their own areas that also are safety concerns.

When you pointed out the limited areas that this is not a problem, only one government agency (state/county/city) "owns" the roads, so no problems other than what actually gets fixed, and what doesn't. Reality is 99%+ of the roads are not owned by a single agency, and what you describe is a very common issue.

State has power over the counties, who have power over the cities. Doesn't work the other way though.

[mattec]

I've seen traffic lights in unincorporated Shelby County

[JMT]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.

From this article...

"...we can't do traffic lights out in the county."

Is it true that the county highway departments can't add traffic lights? I know city roads can, and TDOT can on state highways even in unincorporated areas, but I've indeed never seen any "out in the county" except on very large highways.

NOTE: This IS relevant to Tennessee specifically. It is seemingly not a nationwide thing. See spoiler for details.

Spoiler

It becomes irrelevant in Virginia, where every road is a state road.

It becomes irrelevant in the District of Columbia, where 100% of the area is incorporated.

It becomes irrelevant in Hawaii, where the only incorporated area is the City and County of Honolulu, yet Hilo (and surely some smaller unincorporated cities) have traffic lights on entirely non-state-road intersections.

Reasons I'm furious with this state-level restriction (if it really exists):
--The intersection mentioned above really NEEDS either a traffic light or a roundabout.
--Even if it wasn't a problem for the above intersection, surely several other mainly-urban counties have faced this problem before. Even Rutherford, Montgomery, Hamilton, Knox and Shelby Counties have unincorporated areas (Davidson doesn't because it's a city-county).
--It's just a sign of corruption in general. Isn't Tennessee, for all its errors, known for granting strong home rule powers? This basically contradicts that.
--Even if they have reasons for the above, it would mean TDOT would have to get involved and add a state highway crossing these problematic intersections; as if they didn't already need one crossing that very intersection anyways!

P.S.: Do you think this supposed restriction on the county road departments should be lifted? Why or why not?

I remember seeing that, too, and was puzzled by the response. There are traffic lights in rural areas of other counties. For what it's worth, TDOT on its web page says it "does not maintain any traffic signals" which suggests that county transportation departments must be behind the traffic signals that exist outside of cities. Maybe there's something about rural counties (non metropolitan areas) that can't have traffic signals outside of cities? I have no idea. It doesn't make much sense. Or maybe it's unique to Putnam County, that the county road department does not have the authority from the county commission to install traffic signals. Who knows.

For the record, here's the intersection you referred to above:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1542...!7i3328!8i1664

I generally much prefer roundabouts to 4-way stops, but in this instance a roundabout would cost a fortune since it would require demolishing a house and moving several utility poles. A 4-way stop here is fine, although at some point it'll probably have to be upgraded to a traffic signal.

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by mattec

I've seen traffic lights in unincorporated Shelby County

Are you sure that wasn't on a state highway? I've seen them on S.R. 55 in unincorporated Warren County. (Morrison is incorporated, but there are traffic lights on parts of the highway in nearby unincorporated areas.)

Originally Posted by JMT

I remember seeing that, too, and was puzzled by the response. There are traffic lights in rural areas of other counties. For what it's worth, TDOT on its web page says it "does not maintain any traffic signals" which suggests that county transportation departments must be behind the traffic signals that exist outside of cities. Maybe there's something about rural counties (non metropolitan areas) that can't have traffic signals outside of cities? I have no idea. It doesn't make much sense. Or maybe it's unique to Putnam County, that the county road department does not have the authority from the county commission to install traffic signals. Who knows.

For the record, here's the intersection you referred to above:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1542...!7i3328!8i1664

I generally much prefer roundabouts to 4-way stops, but in this instance a roundabout would cost a fortune since it would require demolishing a house and moving several utility poles. A 4-way stop here is fine, although at some point it'll probably have to be upgraded to a traffic signal.

Well if that's the case, Cookeville and/or Baxter may ought to consider annexing the Double Springs area, and Silver Point and/or Buffalo Valley may ought to consider incorporating with surrounding areas included to meet the 1,500 people needed (perhaps even both as a single city with two "downtowns", similar to Gruetli-Laager in Grundy County). It is very odd, and those areas are likely to need it one day if what you've said is true.

Also, if that's really the case about counties/metro areas, it's really unfair. No way a mostly rural metro county like Smith, Macon or Hickman should be considered more "urban" than a micro core county!

[An Einnseanair]

There are LOTS of traffic lights outside city limits in Hamilton County. Some quite a ways out. It's about funding and traffic counts.

Looking at that intersection, it's a clear candidate for a roundabout (depending on traffic counts). You could easily fit an offset roundabout there without doing anything to the house, and distribution-level utility poles are relatively cheap to move.

[mattec]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.

Are you sure that wasn't on a state highway? I've seen them on S.R. 55 in unincorporated Warren County. (Morrison is incorporated, but there are traffic lights on parts of the highway in nearby unincorporated areas.)

Just a few that I know off the top of my head.

Houston Levee & Walnut Grove: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1295...7i16384!8i8192

Raleigh-LaGrange & Houston Hill:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1168...7i13312!8i6656

Hacks Cross & Holmes:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0055...7i16384!8i8192

Hacks Cross & Meadow Vale
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0275...7i16384!8i8192

Winchester & Champion Hills
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0478...7i16384!8i8192

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by mattec

Just a few that I know off the top of my head.

Houston Levee & Walnut Grove: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1295...7i16384!8i8192

Raleigh-LaGrange & Houston Hill:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1168...7i13312!8i6656

Hacks Cross & Holmes:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0055...7i16384!8i8192

Hacks Cross & Meadow Vale
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0275...7i16384!8i8192

Winchester & Champion Hills
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0478...7i16384!8i8192

Oh, so apparently they're NOT all on state highways! Maybe JMT was right, that it is something about metro areas regardless of traffic volumes and actual urbanity? EDIT: Although Warren County isn't a "metropolitan" county, the unincorporated traffic lights there are all on state highways, so it could still be the case.

[mattec]

It's probably a combination of traffic volume and funding. Larger counties like Shelby, Rutherford, and Williamson have a ton more resources and funding compared to smaller counties like Warren, Roane, or Gibson. If there was a need for a traffic light at an intersection of county routes, they may be able to scrape the several hundred thousand $$ needed for a traffic light, or they may try to make due with a four way stop and flashers.

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by mattec

It's probably a combination of traffic volume and funding. Larger counties like Shelby, Rutherford, and Williamson have a ton more resources and funding compared to smaller counties like Warren, Roane, or Gibson. If there was a need for a traffic light at an intersection of county routes, they may be able to scrape the several hundred thousand $$ needed for a traffic light, or they may try to make due with a four way stop and flashers.

True, but even Williamson County isn't quite a major city county (although it likely will be one day), and Putnam County isn't really a "smaller" nor rural county. It seems almost as though people in Putnam County are as unwilling to embrace their urbanity and people in the Upland South in general are to embrace their subtropicality.