Do Texas natives consider Texas the South or Midwest (Houston: assessment, cities)

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by solytaire

Add me to the list of people who thinks most of Texas is Southern...And Im not tired of discussing it in the least.

I always like reading your posts on the subject, Solytaire. I even quote you sometime (hope you don't mind!). Thanks, buddy.

[solytaire]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

I always like reading your posts on the subject, Solytaire. I even quote you sometime (hope you don't mind!). Thanks, buddy.

Not at all Reb..even flattered by it a lil...lol

[Spade]

Originally Posted by berneke

I live in DFW and have never heard it referred to as Midwestern. We're so far South of the Midwest it's hard to comprehend.

Well Texas isn't that far from the Midwest though. But nobody considers DFW as being Midwestern. Just a Southern metro that has Midwestern characteristics. It's no different from Chicago. It's a Midwestern metro with a little bit of Southern characteristics.

[brubaker]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Oh lordymercy, here we go again. Maybe one day it can just be agreed to all disagree and let this un' go. But when it resurrects, I guess I will get back into it...LOL>



Keep dreaming about what? I think you missed the point. But in all fairness, maybe I didn't explain it very well....

Lets get this one settled. By strict definition, "Dixie" is defined as the 11 Old Confederate States. Texas is very much a part of THAT definition (heck, the Cotton Bowl today was first named the "Dixie Classic"). Today? The definition is more related to the "moonlight and magnolias" image...of which most of Texas doesn't fit.

BUT...here is the thing. It seems that the "Southerness" of Texas is always measured east to west. What about it measured from west to east?

Sure, if the standard of "The South" is a portrait of Mississippi and Alabama, then lots of Texas wouldn't fit. But then, neither would most of Virginia, Kentucky, and even Arkansas. Certainly not Florida. Some "Deep South purists" even exclude Tennessee and North Carolina. And even Louisiana. Geez.

So again, take the walk west to east and one finds that Texas is essentially part of the American South. Accents, traditions, politics, and just a whole way of life that is MUCH more connected to the southeast (where most settlers came from) than the Interior Southwest or Far West. When one crosses the Texas border with New Mexico...things "Southern" become very conspicuous in a way not present in New Mexico. Texas is where the South begins.



Well, yeah, I should have qualified a bit with the trans-pecos. I don't think there is any doubt that THAT part of Texas is truly Southwestern. My point was that even out there, there is a certain Southern influence not present in the rest of the SW.



I agree. And my family roots are deep in Mississippi, and lots of Alabama as well. But not withstanding that the upper-Texas panhandle area is more connected to the "Plains Midwest" than the South, the main point is that most of Texas is Southern in its outlook and history and heritage, and way of life.



Touche' LOL No, I havent written a book on it yet (although I have one one in the making), but think of it this way, ok? How many really put any stock in Nine Nations of North America as a true measure of regional culture? I have read it before...and if you think the measures are on target, then groovy. But, even by self-identification with a region, it is faulty. I mean, most of Texas being part of a "region" with Iowa? Other than the fact wheat is grown, what is similar?

On the other hand, I can name quite a few (Raymond Gastils' Cultural Regions of the United States is the best) which place most of Texas in the South so far as most traits make it. Campbells "Gone to Texas" is a good one. And it doesn't seem he is any great fan of the South...but advances the simple truth that the major influence on Texas is and remains, that of the South.

How many (and I confess I didn't know it until I read his book) know that the moniker "Empire State of the South" originated in 1858 and referred to Texas..?



Who knows, indeed...?

Yeah yeah yeah, whuteva.

Still not Dixie.




But seriously, don'tcha think you should actually read Nine Nations before you call it ridiculous etc.?

AND...he says in the book that Texas...San Antonio in particular... is considered the 'Edge of an Empire' which has stuck with me to this day as a very apt description.

Not like it's some marvelous book or anything but he does have a certain way with words being the Washington Post Editior for all those years an' all.
The book itself is 20 years old or something but most of what he said has come to pass I found.

Anyways...

Whuteva!

[Frodo2008]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Oh lordymercy, here we go again. Maybe one day it can just be agreed to all disagree and let this un' go. But when it resurrects, I guess I will get back into it...LOL>



Keep dreaming about what? I think you missed the point. But in all fairness, maybe I didn't explain it very well....

Lets get this one settled. By strict definition, "Dixie" is defined as the 11 Old Confederate States. Texas is very much a part of THAT definition (heck, the Cotton Bowl today was first named the "Dixie Classic"). Today? The definition is more related to the "moonlight and magnolias" image...of which most of Texas doesn't fit.

BUT...here is the thing. It seems that the "Southerness" of Texas is always measured east to west. What about it measured from west to east?

Sure, if the standard of "The South" is a portrait of Mississippi and Alabama, then lots of Texas wouldn't fit. But then, neither would most of Virginia, Kentucky, and even Arkansas. Certainly not Florida. Some "Deep South purists" even exclude Tennessee and North Carolina. And even Louisiana. Geez.

So again, take the walk west to east and one finds that Texas is essentially part of the American South. Accents, traditions, politics, and just a whole way of life that is MUCH more connected to the southeast (where most settlers came from) than the Interior Southwest or Far West. When one crosses the Texas border with New Mexico...things "Southern" become very conspicuous in a way not present in New Mexico. Texas is where the South begins.



Well, yeah, I should have qualified a bit with the trans-pecos. I don't think there is any doubt that THAT part of Texas is truly Southwestern. My point was that even out there, there is a certain Southern influence not present in the rest of the SW.



I agree. And my family roots are deep in Mississippi, and lots of Alabama as well. But not withstanding that the upper-Texas panhandle area is more connected to the "Plains Midwest" than the South, the main point is that most of Texas is Southern in its outlook and history and heritage, and way of life.



Touche' LOL No, I havent written a book on it yet (although I have one one in the making), but think of it this way, ok? How many really put any stock in Nine Nations of North America as a true measure of regional culture? I have read it before...and if you think the measures are on target, then groovy. But, even by self-identification with a region, it is faulty. I mean, most of Texas being part of a "region" with Iowa? Other than the fact wheat is grown, what is similar?

On the other hand, I can name quite a few (Raymond Gastils' Cultural Regions of the United States is the best) which place most of Texas in the South so far as most traits make it. Campbells "Gone to Texas" is a good one. And it doesn't seem he is any great fan of the South...but advances the simple truth that the major influence on Texas is and remains, that of the South.

How many (and I confess I didn't know it until I read his book) know that the moniker "Empire State of the South" originated in 1858 and referred to Texas..?



Who knows, indeed...?

Yes most of TX is the south to me. Conservative politics, southern Baptists, dry counties, Bible belt, southern accents, all the things I think of when thinking of the south. NM is the southwest and it's definitely different than most of TX. If you go to Santa Fe it has a much different feel than most of TX. It has the adobe, Indian, southwestern feel to it. I liked it when I went there because I never got that feeling in TX. It was nice to see something different.

Anybody that thinks most of TX is the southwest is definitely wrong. Just go to Santa Fe (the true southwest) and you'll see what I mean. It's a much different vibe.

[Frodo2008]

Oh by the way, did I say most of TX is dixie?

[tech2enable]

Originally Posted by Frodo2008

Yes most of TX is the south to me. Conservative politics, southern Baptists, dry counties, Bible belt, southern accents, all the things I think of when thinking of the south. NM is the southwest and it's definitely different than most of TX. If you go to Santa Fe it has a much different feel than most of TX. It has the adobe, Indian, southwestern feel to it. I liked it when I went there because I never got that feeling in TX. It was nice to see something different.

Anybody that thinks most of TX is the southwest is definitely wrong. Just go to Santa Fe (the true southwest) and you'll see what I mean. It's a much different vibe.

That's mostly true although el paso could be argued more southwestern , much of texas is still bible belt red state dominated especially if you look at the various laws that are passed , however power has been a bit weakened in the past half a decade or so.

[tech2enable]

Originally Posted by Frodo2008

Texas as a whole is pretty southern in its politics and religious beliefs (a lot of Baptists and conservative politics).

I'm with you on that one,while Texas may change in the future given trends, I would still group in that category, that particular influence still has a lock on texas politics so I would its hard to argue otherwise.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by brubaker

Yeah yeah yeah, whuteva.

Still not Dixie.

Oh, c'mon, Brubaker. I said (and will say again) there are kinda two different definitions of "Dixie". The original one is the 11 Old Confederate States...of which no doubt Texas is/was a part. Today? In the vernacular? Most of it doesn't fit that image. I will be the first to agree with THAT!

But seriously, don'tcha think you should actually read Nine Nations before you call it ridiculous etc.?

I HAVE read it, Brubaker. Matter of fact, I bought the book when it first came out (Texas/Southern studies have always been an avocation of mine). What I am saying is, stacked up with other "regional cultural" studies, Nine Nations of North America falls short for the simple reason it often fails to take into account the influence of history and self-identification and basic culture so intrinsic to what actually makes a region. Much of the southern Midwest is placed within "Dixie" in his book.

But do those folks actually identify with "Dixie"? The point I was trying make earlier is that -- while for sure the trans-pecos and upper panhandle don't fit the Old South mold -- they are STILL more "Southern" than any part of the true SW or Midwest.

AND...he says in the book that Texas...San Antonio in particular... is considered the 'Edge of an Empire' which has stuck with me to this day as a very apt description.

And I agree, to a certain extent. But how many know that, San Antone has been described as "A blend of Old Mexico and Old South"?

Not like it's some marvelous book or anything but he does have a certain way with words being the Washington Post Editior for all those years an' all. The book itself is 20 years old or something but most of what he said has come to pass I found.

Yes, he does. As I said, I read the book when it first came out. Certain parts ring true, but it has to be comparatively considered. The "divisions" he makes are based on what many (not just me) condider extremely economic considerations which don't hold water when it comes to larger ones of history and basic culture. I mean, really...lots of Texas IS the "Breadbasket" I agree...but what else does it have which bonds it to the northern mid-west? (ok, Tornado Alley! LOL) They feel no affinity with us, nor us with them. Texas (and to a slightly lesser extent, most of Oklahoma) are "Southern" in nature and influence and roots.

Anyways...

Whuteva!

LOL As you say, whateva.

Now, how 'bout them Horns! \../

[Frodo2008]

Originally Posted by tech2enable

That's mostly true although el paso could be argued more southwestern , much of texas is still bible belt red state dominated especially if you look at the various laws that are passed , however power has been a bit weakened in the past half a decade or so.

I would agree. El Paso has a southwestern feel to it. El Paso looks a lot like southern CA. It has mountains, desert and palm trees. It looks much different than most of TX. I agree El Paso is pretty southwestern.