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Why is it that when a political figure is either loved or loathed, the side of the spectrum they support will make excuses for their obvious shortcomings?
Paisley was one of the largest anti-Catholic bigots on planet earth for most of his public life. Yet you want to bring up how he might have been willing to help Catholics now and again.
I am sure there are many examples of people generally bigoted/prejudiced toward blacks, yet still helped individuals in various ways.
So just because he was not a monster, doesn't mean his known bigotry can be glossed over so easily. I hae given him credit for having moderated in the latter part of his life, but that does not seem something your side of the aisle with regards to people like Adams.
I can only imagine if Adams or McGuinness had also been kind to Protestants or Unionists now and again, you would not be as inclined to stand up for them.
As to this notion I have adopted a Nationalist talking point, you again conveniently ignore part of history. Well before the modern Nationalist/Republican movement, many were clamoring for English/British rule to end. You and others want to use selective history and claim Ireland was never unified under Irish rule, only English rule.
This clearly is not the case, though it is more accurate to say so in modern times. You being well versed in Ulster history and taking obvious pride in it related to your own tribe, should be aware of times where Ireland was under their own rule without alien powers governing them.
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I could equally call you a bigot as you have shown time and again where you stand. I said that Paisley was as you say but he also helped Catholics. He visited a Catholic mother whose son had been murdered by the IRA and his body buried somewhere unknown. I think that woman died and she never was told where her son was buried. Yes, he disagreed with the RC church big time and he railed against it but in someways he has been proved to be right given the treatment and suffering of thousands of children. How many people did Paisley murder or give the go-ahead for them to be murdered ?
Tell me when Ireland was ruled by one person as an undisputed nation.
Why is it that when a political figure is either loved or loathed, the side of the spectrum they support will make excuses for their obvious shortcomings?
Paisley was one of the largest anti-Catholic bigots on planet earth for most of his public life. Yet you want to bring up how he might have been willing to help Catholics now and again.
I am sure there are many examples of people generally bigoted/prejudiced toward blacks, yet still helped individuals in various ways.
So just because he was not a monster, doesn't mean his known bigotry can be glossed over so easily. I hae given him credit for having moderated in the latter part of his life, but that does not seem something your side of the aisle with regards to people like Adams.
I can only imagine if Adams or McGuinness had also been kind to Protestants or Unionists now and again, you would not be as inclined to stand up for them.
As to this notion I have adopted a Nationalist talking point, you again conveniently ignore part of history. Well before the modern Nationalist/Republican movement, many were clamoring for English/British rule to end. You and others want to use selective history and claim Ireland was never unified under Irish rule, only English rule.
This clearly is not the case, though it is more accurate to say so in modern times. You being well versed in Ulster history and taking obvious pride in it related to your own tribe, should be aware of times where Ireland was under their own rule without alien powers governing them.
`
I wasn't even born during paisley's bible thumping hay day but i know people who uses to be involved in an all island agricultural fraternity, my father was a farmer and I accompanied him to farm tours in northern Ireland when I was around ten, he's dead a long time but friends of his who I still know could tell me that the reverend Ian paisley was often at the various country fairs and shows, no doubt he was canvassing for votes but these men claimed paisley was an extremely likeable man in person and knew full well my dad and his friends were southern Catholics
I think paisley was a man born about three centuries too late, bar places like the bible belt in the usa, sincerely held beliefs that Catholicism was borderline devil worship are dead as long as the dodo, he was a politician who dealt in three century old fire and brimstone dogma but it was not he who created the northern Ireland state, plenty of other genteel unionists were far less charitable to all things Irish than the Ballymena man
I wasn't even born during paisley's bible thumping hay day but i know people who uses to be involved in an all island agricultural fraternity, my father was a farmer and I accompanied him to farm tours in northern Ireland when I was around ten, he's dead a long time but friends of his who I still know could tell me that the reverend Ian paisley was often at the various country fairs and shows, no doubt he was canvassing for votes but these men claimed paisley was an extremely likeable man in person and knew full well my dad and his friends were southern Catholics
I think paisley was a man born about three centuries too late, bar places like the bible belt in the usa, sincerely held beliefs that Catholicism was borderline devil worship are dead as long as the dodo, he was a politician who dealt in three century old fire and brimstone dogma but it was not he who created the northern Ireland state, plenty of other genteel unionists were far less charitable to all things Irish than the Ballymena man
As I have said I am no fan of Paisley. He was liked by many people and I was one of them at one time but though time I didn't like the road he was taking. He would have been aware of other preachers who went before him. Preachers like 'Roaring' Hanna etc. Yes he would have been at home in the Bible Belt in the Southern States of America in fact he was in touch with Bob Jones and both men had visited each other.
He did not make any difference between Catholic and Protestant when he became an MP. As their representative at Westminster,Europe and Stormont he worked for all. However, I do believe he did play a part in what became the start of the 'Troubles' Both sides had a role in what followed.
I think we should remember when the 'Troubles' started it was the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising. Nelson's Pillar was blew up and other bombings took place. In Ulster people were worried there would be the same happening here.
As I have said I am no fan of Paisley. He was liked by many people and I was one of them at one time but though time I didn't like the road he was taking. He would have been aware of other preachers who went before him. Preachers like 'Roaring' Hanna etc. Yes he would have been at home in the Bible Belt in the Southern States of America in fact he was in touch with Bob Jones and both men had visited each other.
He did not make any difference between Catholic and Protestant when he became an MP. As their representative at Westminster,Europe and Stormont he worked for all. However, I do believe he did play a part in what became the start of the 'Troubles' Both sides had a role in what followed.
I think we should remember when the 'Troubles' started it was the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising. Nelson's Pillar was blew up and other bombings took place. In Ulster people were worried there would be the same happening here.
The blowing up of Nelson was the work of idiots, most architectual experts agree it was a real gem
When you say you liked paisley one time, do you mean he became too soft on SF or am I reading that entirely wrong?
The blowing up of Nelson was the work of idiots, most architectual experts agree it was a real gem
When you say you liked paisley one time, do you mean he became too soft on SF or am I reading that entirely wrong?
No, maybe the opposite. I began to see him in a different light and looking back over his actions could see that he was a bit of a 'rabble-rouser' who got the people going. 1964 and republicans displayed a tricolour in a shop window which they used as their political base. Paisley threatened that if the police would not remove it he would lead a march with his people to take it out of the window. The police moved in to remove it and a riot ensued. There was no need for that and nobody was paying any attention to it until Paisley came on the scene. Bear in mind too that was years before the 'Troubles' started.
The IRA had paraded up and down in areas and the Unionist government ignored it and let them parade. These passed of peacefully and life continued.
But as I said the 50th anniversary helped to stir things and made unionist people feel uneasy. There were all sorts of rumours flying around about an invasion etc
They also blew up the Boyne Obelisk and the Walker Pillar in Londonderry
No, maybe the opposite. I began to see him in a different light and looking back over his actions could see that he was a bit of a 'rabble-rouser' who got the people going. 1964 and republicans displayed a tricolour in a shop window which they used as their political base. Paisley threatened that if the police would not remove it he would lead a march with his people to take it out of the window. The police moved in to remove it and a riot ensued. There was no need for that and nobody was paying any attention to it until Paisley came on the scene. Bear in mind too that was years before the 'Troubles' started.
The IRA had paraded up and down in areas and the Unionist government ignored it and let them parade. These passed of peacefully and life continued.
But as I said the 50th anniversary helped to stir things and made unionist people feel uneasy. There were all sorts of rumours flying around about an invasion etc
They also blew up the Boyne Obelisk and the Walker Pillar in Londonderry
"an invasion"
The Irish army would have been creamed, Jack lynch was our leader back then and a more mild mannered individual, has never lived, lynch made speeches about the troubles but his party faced down the small factions who were agitating, the SF position was another matter but there was certainly never a chance of an official state intervention, I don't say that as anything other than fact, not having the wherewithal to help who you view as your own people is not a great position to be in
Naturally many people had kinship with nationalists in Northern Ireland but of course, ulster protestants feel kinship with folk across the water in the same way.
I could equally call you a bigot as you have shown time and again where you stand.
I said that Paisley was as you say but he also helped Catholics. He visited a Catholic mother whose son had been murdered by the IRA and his body buried somewhere unknown. I think that woman died and she never was told where her son was buried. Yes, he disagreed with the RC church big time and he railed against it but in someways he has been proved to be right given the treatment and suffering of thousands of children. How many people did Paisley murder or give the go-ahead for them to be murdered ?
Tell me when Ireland was ruled by one person as an undisputed nation.
Well then let see if you fail to back up this claim whether you will admit to another mistake, or just fail to acknowledge it.
I know I am not bigoted toward Protestants because I do not feel that way in the slightest. Thus I am confident that you could search my posts and never find one comment that shows disrespect or derogatory names directed toward anyone of those denominations.
Heck I don't even knock the Mormons who have a very strange history and foundation of their faith in this country.
So unless you have mixed me up with another poster, you will try in vain to find even one comment where I expressed bigotry toward Protestants.
As to your claim Paisley may have helped some Catholics in some capacity, I assumed you might be right. However if he is comforting Catholics over IRA related violence, that sounds more like "the enemy of my enemy, is my friend" type of situation.
As to your Paisley question, when did I ever claim he murdered or ordered the murder of anyone?
I think the only one I have touched upon for intentionally killing Catholics/Irish with relish was Cromwell.
But I suppose there are those who might say he was kind to his German Shepard's, gave alms to the blind, and spared a few Catholics along the way.
That no doubt mitigates his butchery with some of his apologists.
Lastly, you seem to really believe that Ireland was never without outside governance. I think this mistaken belief belies a notion by some that the Irish were war like ignorant backwards people, who needed to either be taken care of, or made to conform to English culture/norms/laws (for their own good).
Well then let see if you fail to back up this claim whether you will admit to another mistake, or just fail to acknowledge it.
I know I am not bigoted toward Protestants because I do not feel that way in the slightest. Thus I am confident that you could search my posts and never find one comment that shows disrespect or derogatory names directed toward anyone of those denominations.
Heck I don't even knock the Mormons who have a very strange history and foundation of their faith in this country.
So unless you have mixed me up with another poster, you will try in vain to find even one comment where I expressed bigotry toward Protestants.
As to your claim Paisley may have helped some Catholics in some capacity, I assumed you might be right. However if he is comforting Catholics over IRA related violence, that sounds more like "the enemy of my enemy, is my friend" type of situation.
As to your Paisley question, when did I ever claim he murdered or ordered the murder of anyone?
I think the only one I have touched upon for intentionally killing Catholics/Irish with relish was Cromwell.
But I suppose there are those who might say he was kind to his German Shepard's, gave alms to the blind, and spared a few Catholics along the way.
That no doubt mitigates his butchery with some of his apologists.
Lastly, you seem to really believe that Ireland was never without outside governance. I think this mistaken belief belies a notion by some that the Irish were war like ignorant backwards people, who needed to either be taken care of, or made to conform to English culture/norms/laws (for their own good).
`
The Irish may have been war like but were pygmies compared to the British, the British have been a superbly efficient war machine for more than five centuries, still far and away the strongest milltary in the EU.
The Irish may have been war like but were pygmies compared to the British, the British have been a superbly efficient war machine for more than five centuries, still far and away the strongest milltary in the EU.
Indeed, and up until we Yanks taught them a lesson in the 1700's and later got their bacon out of the pan in WWII, they were top dog with their imperial war machine.
The Brits naval exploits alone are still studied to this day.
We are of course buddies today, and I am glad to see they are maintaining their military strength, as we live in a dangerous world and I believe in peace through strength.
My response to Ulsterman was more related to notions that some people (as Dangerous Boy likes to say) "the Irish like to fight".
I imagine that is true of the Scots as well, and is not a knock per se. I guess it would explain some of the intransigence in NI.
However you can read the condescension of posters like Roscoe who seems to have contempt for the Irish, regardless of the conflicts within the English/Britain over the centuries, much less in NI.
Some people almost seem to have a prejudice toward the Irish like some southern whites did toward the blacks in our country.
They "cannot fend for themselves, are not well educated or too stupid to learn, tend to be violent, always drunk/high, etc".
These generalizations and stereotypes are not unique to any particular group of people, but you do get the impression certain Brits look down their nose at the Irish.
Sure back in the day much of the conflict centered around religion when good old Henry wanted his way and decided to start the CoE. England alone battled back and forth between rulers as to Catholicism or Protestantism, and it was inevitable that Catholic Ireland would be the subject of English aggression.
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