Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Latest Farage, reiterating the truism of a doomed EU.
Looking at his other material, for someone alleged to be "too simple" with his approach to economics, he does appear to be remarkably well clued in. At least if we talk the current quadrivirate as a frame of reference.
I'm not quite sure if this post is meant seriously, but if it is, I'd like to address one point:
The rise of London is predominantly due to its ascendant financial services industry: The globalization of finance away from the North Atlantic to incorporate the Far East and other developing nations around the world, and a period of light touch regulation (implemented in the Thatcher/Blair era, no less) at a time when post-Sarbanes Oxley New York was encumbered with excessive bureaucracy and a prohibitive litigious culture. As the world becomes more globally interconnected, London's timezone centrality and ease of business levers it a big advantage over its sister city, which is why international businesses have migrated to set up headquarters in London and list their stocks there.
The other major factor is its brand image success with a well-executed 2012 Olympics. This accelerated the boom that was already developing in its retail, tourism and international dining industries.
Immigration control is not a dichotomy. Be careful not to fall into the leftist trap of black and white thinking on this issue. Lax controls may provide a source of cheap migrant labor (with its contingent problems), but, beyond that, establishing a notable causal link is tenuous at best
Yes it was serious
And who do you think works the trading floors of said financial institutions? Educated graduates from all over the globe. I used to work in Fixed Income before I founded my own tech company and colleagues came from North America, Russia, All of Europe, Western Africa, Middle East, South Asia and the Far East. They were all highly educated armed with Masters and Ph'Ds in the main from the most prestigious institutions in their countries. This idea that the City is somehow outside of the immigration debate is a fallacy. The City thrives upon bright largely foreign labour and money nowadays.
I have no issue with the deregulation of markets as I worked in finance for well over a decade. That being said it did expose the whole population to the gearing taken on by the banks, which was a problem whenever things went south (but that's another debate). My issue is with attitudes towards manufacturing born of ideological dogma which has its origins in Thatcherism. Many industries in both the US and UK were allowed to go to the wall without any thought as to what would replace them. America at least offset with tech, an unexpected byproduct of the military industrial complex. Britain never did and as a result condemned millions across the north of England to relative poverty. What made me acutely aware that this was entirely unnecessary was that in Germany and Japan working class populations are still in productive well paid employment in the manufacturing industry. Farage's thinking is no different from the big parties in this regard, with his love of the Thatcherite status quo which got us into this mess in the first place...
Two you are forgetting the massive inflows of cash from the emerging world in the form of financial, property and infrastructure investment. Those foreigners are lured here because of Britain's perceived tolerance compared to places like Paris and Frankfurt. This is what Farage's nonsense is unfortunately undoing. Everyone from Gulf State Elites, Indians, Russian Oligarches, Chinese to Nigerian Oligarchs park their fortunes here. The Shard wouldn't have been built were in not for Qatari money. The stamp duty from sales of properties to Nigerian Oligarchs helps funds hospitals, schools etc. Heck Battersea power station which stood derelict for years is now being redeveloped with largely Malaysian money..
Please stop with this UKIP nonsense about swarms of uneducated cheap immigrants. The fact that the offspring of these immigrants comprehensively outpeform the native population academically would suggest otherwise. It all indicates they form the Upper and Middle class tiers of their nations and we are getting that largely for free as we didn't pay to educate their parents.
I am far from being a lefty.. But I know BS when I hear it and UKIP is exactly that
Last edited by nograviti; 02-18-2015 at 04:35 AM..
Reason: missed a region
Yet all you've done so far is parrot the simple-minded Guardian linear thinking on this topic, right down to using the same terminology and logical fallacies.
A monofactorial approach to the problem of EU membership (in fact, any economics at all) may make good tabloid sensationalism, but it has little use beyond frivolous student/pub banter.
So I disagree with you and point out the inconsistencies in UKIP thinking and thus I am a Lefty
Right...
As I said I am not a fan of the EU, it hasn't posted audited accounts for years. But for Britain given its massive structural problems (which not one of you has been able address), means that for now we are better off inside.
Two your motivations against immigration have nothing to do with logic, but a sentiment that "there are too many foreigners in my streets'. The fact that on average they are likely to be better educated and work harder than you seems to fly over your head...
Never mind the improvement in our demographics compared to rapidly ageing populations found in places like Italy and Germany, I still don't see any merit in UKIP's nonsensical anti immigrant BS..
Mr Farage was once asked "would you like to see a reduction in immigration, even if that meant reduced economic growth?" to which he responded 'Yes'. At that point I switched off and never had any more time for Mr Farage! Sheer utter foolishness.. Google it, its on youtube...
The biggest joke is that he has a German wife and his surname hints at his own foreign lineage
Last edited by nograviti; 02-18-2015 at 04:21 AM..
Reason: grammar
And who do you think works the trading floors of said financial institutions? Educated graduates from all over the globe. I used to work in Fixed Income before I founded my own tech company and colleagues came from North America, Russia, All of Europe, Western Africa, South Asia and the Far East. They were all highly educated armed with Masters and Ph'Ds in the main from the most prestigious institutions in their countries. This idea that the City is somehow outside of the immigration debate is a fallacy. The City thrives upon bright largely foreign labour and money nowadays.
Two you are forgetting the massive inflows of cash from the emerging world in the form of financial, property and infrastructure investment. Those foreigners are lured here because of Britain's perceived tolerance compared to places like Paris and Frankfurt. This is what Farage's nonsense is unfortunately undoing. Everyone from Gulf State Elites, Indians, Russian Oligarches, Chinese to Nigerian Oligarchs park their fortunes here. The Shard wouldn't have been built were in not for Qatari money. The stamp duty from sales of properties to Nigerian Oligarchs helps funds hospitals, schools etc. Heck Battersea power station which stood derelict for years is now being redeveloped with largely Malaysian money..
Please stop with this UKIP nonsense about swarms of uneducated cheap immigrants. The fact that the offspring of these children comprehensively outpeform the native population academically would suggest otherwise. It all indicates they form the Upper and Middle class tiers of their nations and we are getting that largely for free as we didn't pay to educate their parents.
I am far from being a lefty.. But I know BS when I hear it and UKIP is exactly that
This is exactly why I warned against approaching immigration with a black and white mindset: The fallacious idea that having any kind of border control in place equates to "intolerance" and bigotry, or that it somehow equates to closing the borders to foreigners altogether.
The very point is to prevent the migration of undesirables with barndoor malignant backgrounds, human traffickers, criminals et al., while giving transit privilege to talented individuals who can contribute meaningfully. The weighting of criteria for this we've not even begun to discuss.
So I disagree with you and point out the inconsistencies in UKIP thinking and thus I am a Lefty
Right...
As I said I am not a fan of the EU, it hasn't posted audited accounts for years. But for Britain given its massive structural problems (which not one of you has been able address), means that for now we are better off inside.
Two your motivations against immigration have nothing to do with logic, but a sentiment that "there are too many foreigners in my streets'. The fact that on average they are likely to be better educated and work harder than you seems to fly over your head...
Never mind the improvement in our demographics compared to rapidly ageing populations found in places like Italy and Germany, I still don't see any merit in UKIP's nonsensical anti immigrant BS..
Mr Farage was once asked "would you like to see a reduction in immigration, even if that meant reduced economic growth?" to which he responded 'Yes'. At that point I switched off and never had any more time for Mr Farage! Sheer utter foolishness.. Google it, its on youtube...
The biggest joke is that he has a German wife and his surname hints at his own foreign lineage
You've written four paragraphs of vitriol that have little to do with anything I said.
I was talking about the problems of using simple-minded tabloid rhetoric in discussions, not about immigration, specifically.
Also, are you really in any position to be commenting on my educational background?
This is exactly why I warned against approaching immigration with a black and white mindset: The fallacious idea that having any kind of border control in place equates to "intolerance" and bigotry, or that it somehow equates to closing the borders to foreigners altogether.
The very point is to prevent the migration of undesirables with barndoor malignant backgrounds, human traffickers, criminals et al., while giving transit privilege to talented individuals who can contribute meaningfully. The weighting of criteria for this we've not even begun to discuss.
Look when we have politicians jumping on the UKIP bandwagon, implementing policies that make it difficult for PH'D holders from top universities to stay in Britain then we have a problem (currently they have to leave the country and then reapply for a visa which is plain IDIOTIC).
You do realise that Yahoo, Google and Apple was born of the children of immigrants or created by immigrants? That is the kind of entrepreneurial talent we are none too politely telling to sod off.
Also when most of the votes for UKIP comes from regions with few minorities or immigrants, then that would suggest bigotry is a factor.
Couple that with the odd UKIP politicians making unsavory remarks about certain groups, then you get the picture...
Look when we have politicians jumping on the UKIP bandwagon, implementing policies that make it difficult for PH'D holders from top universities to stay in Britain then we have a problem (currently they have to leave the country and then reapply for a visa which is plain IDIOTIC).
You do realise that Yahoo, Google and Apple was born of the children of immigrants or created by immigrants? That is the kind of entrepreneurial talent we are none too politely telling to sod off.
Also when most of the votes for UKIP comes from regions with few minorities or immigrants, then that would suggest bigotry is a factor.
Couple that with the odd UKIP politicians making unsavory remarks about certain groups, then you get the picture...
I've not said anything at all about UKIP or their policies.
Even if I did, you're still thinking in false dichotomies:
1. "Any form of border control is racism."
2. "UKIP wish to implement border control."
3. "Therefore UKIP are racist."
1. "Non-UKIP representatives have a racist agenda against talented foreigners."
2. "UKIP are racist."
3. "Therefore these non-UKIP politicians are de facto UKIP."
This is what I actually said: Safeguards should be put in place to prevent migration of criminals and undesirables (into any country, not just the UK). If you take objection to that, give me reasons why you think it's a bad idea.
Last edited by Hightower72; 02-18-2015 at 05:41 AM..
I've not said anything at all about UKIP or their policies.
Even if I did, you're still thinking in false dichotomies:
1. "Any form of border control is racism."
2. "UKIP wish to implement border control."
3. "Therefore UKIP are racist."
1. "Non-UKIP representatives have a racist agenda against talented foreigners."
2. "UKIP are racist."
3. "Therefore these non-UKIP politicians are de facto UKIP."
This is what I actually said: Safeguards should be put in place to prevent migration of criminals and undesirables (into any country, not just the UK). If you take objection to that, give me reasons why you think it's a bad idea.
Making up your own questions and answers methinks. I suggest you reread my posts..
At the end of the day I have no issue with some form of border control, which we largely have regarding non-EU migration which is nowadays always largely skilled.
If we have open immigration from the EU as part of the free market, I think it is a small price to pay for the benefits of membership. Why do you not feel the same?
Also please address how we will deal with Britain's structural problems if we left the EU??
Linked to this, tell me how Farage's economic stance is any different to the laissez-faire school of thought espoused by the Tories which left us with massive structural problems and resulted in the financial crisis of 2007?
Also the problem with quotas on immigration is that without exception it results in restrictions on talent reaching certain industries. The student visa policy which the Tories implemented in response to the rise of UKIP is a good example of this.
Given Farage's stance on immigration regardless of its economic effects (e.g. reduced economic growth), please tell me why I should support UKIP's stance on immigration?
Finally address my point on the fact that there is a direct correlation between areas that have few minorities and immigrants being the strongest supporters of UKIP, which is indicative of bigotry most likely being at the root of their anti-immigrant sentiment (especially when coupled with unsavory remarks from a number of their politicians)?
Ditto to CTDom...
Last edited by nograviti; 02-18-2015 at 06:28 AM..
Reason: incl additional party
Latest Farage, reiterating the truism of a doomed EU.
Looking at his other material, for someone alleged to be "too simple" with his approach to economics, he does appear to be remarkably well clued in. At least if we talk the current quadrivirate as a frame of reference.
He's got a background in commodities trading, so definitely more clued up than many of the numpties that we've had in power.
Making up your own questions and answers methinks. I suggest you reread my posts..
At the end of the day I have no issue with some form of border control, which we largely have regarding non-EU migration which is nowadays always largely skilled.
If we have open immigration from the EU as part of the free market, I think it is a small price to pay for the benefits of membership. Why do you not feel the same?
Also please address how we will deal with Britain's structural problems if we left the EU??
Linked to this, tell me how Farage's economic stance is any different to the laissez-faire school of thought espoused by the Tories which left us with massive structural problems and resulted in the financial crisis of 2007?
Also the problem with quotas on immigration is that without exception it results in restrictions on talent reaching certain industries. The student visa policy which the Tories implemented in response to the rise of UKIP is a good example of this.
Given Farage's stance on immigration regardless of its economic effects (e.g. reduced economic growth), please tell me why I should support UKIP's stance on immigration?
Finally address my point on the fact that there is a direct correlation between areas that have few minorities and immigrants being the strongest supporters of UKIP, which is indicative of bigotry most likely being at the root of their anti-immigrant sentiment (especially when coupled with unsavory remarks from a number of their politicians)?
Ditto to CTDom...
They're premises and conclusions, not questions and answers. The premises are propositions, so they do represent your reasoning, pretty much.
As for the rest of your comment, I've not really committed to any personal view on UKIP or their economic or immigration policies. You can rail against them all you like, though I suggest you refrain from pulling them out as straw men again and again in any general discussion concerning the EU or immigration.
Last edited by Hightower72; 02-18-2015 at 06:47 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
