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Well, well, well, what do we have here? A glorification of "Old Money". Mind you, old money is something I never heard of growing up in a mill town west of Pittsburgh, probably b/c most people there were "No Money". Oh, we knew about the Mellons (banking) and of course everyone had heard of Andrew Carnegie and Henry Clay Frick, the steel people, but no one identified with them. There were a few local high rollers too, but for the most part, everyone worked in a steel mill, and the engineers like my father made about as much as the steeelworkers at the the top of the pay scale. It wasn't until I got to college and met some students from Philadelphia that I heard about this "old money" shtick.
Anyway, so it's better to be a Rockefeller, or a Kennedy, or locally here in Colorado, a Coors than it is to be say, Herman Cain, who did grow up poor? The first three have their luxurious spacious compounds that just happen to have been built in the past. In the case of some of these families, there is more than one compound. When Cain was CEO of Godfather's Pizza, he lived in Omaha for a while. I remember going to see his house. I don't particularly recall the house, I'm not a big house fan. I do recall it was newish, and large. He probably had kids living at home at the time. SO WHAT?
Just how many square feet does a house have to have to be classified as a "McMansion"? Just how small does the lot have to be to be classified as "too small"? IIRC, we have some threads, complete with pictures, of people glorifying "zero lot line" homes with virtually no setback from the sidewalk. How do the people on this forum, who likely have never been in a McMansion, know they're constructed poorly? What is the ethical advantage of an old mansion over a new "McMansion"?
ETA: The post I quoted has more than a hint of racism in it, too.
The poster I thought was saying he couldn't imagine being around "old money" and said he was black.
Of near zero lot line homes, I assume you mean me, I think a lot of them looked nice so I posted photos. What's wrong with them? Some of them are from my neighborhood, I didn't think anyone would find the style objectional until this forum.
I've been in a number of McMansions. A lot of them, to me, seem to be big for the sake of being big, instead of a more interesting smaller house. I'd say anything around 3000+ square feet is a McMansion. The owners were more upper-middle class than rich, though the class boundary distinction arguement should probably argued on P&OC rather than this forum. The objection to McMansions is that they're unethical — they're large garish homes for the neighborhood, not just by me but from certain suburban-dwelling family members. I don't see anything wrong with saying some houses are more tasteful than others. The OP wanted to have a large house in a neighborhood with much smaller houses to stand out.
Growing up, the truly wealthy didn't live in my area, they were generally concentrated towards the water 6-7 miles to the north. Some houses were mansion-sized, more old than new. Though, one friend of mine who visited one neighborhood commented that the lot size there looked small to him for rich suburban neighorhood he was used to (probably because neighborhoods by the water tend to have smaller lot sizes) than others in the area don't. In the Long Island town my grandmother grew up, the "old money" owned large estates (including Teddy Roosevelt) and the better off locals were ones who worked on the estates! Now it's a well-off upper-middle suburban community on the water, the estates having been subdivided.
The objection to McMansions is that they're unethical — they're large garish homes for the neighborhood, not just by me but from certain suburban-dwelling family members. I don't see anything wrong with saying some houses are more tasteful than others. The OP wanted to have a large house in a neighborhood with much smaller houses to stand out.
I believe the problem with the word is that it is condescending, meant to belittle certain people that find them attractive.
I believe the problem with the word is that it is condescending, meant to belittle certain people that find them attractive.
Perhaps, but isn't it also a word that describes quickly built homes (similar to a "Mc"Donald's meal)? People call imitation brand-name leather purses and gold-plated watches "knock-offs". I'm not sure if it's meant to be condescending; they're functional (they hold objects and tell time), but the intricate high-quality of the real thing is missing as a trade-off for something that looks glamorous.
I believe the problem with the word is that it is condescending, meant to belittle certain people that find them attractive.
I suppose, but I don't think other people's tastes are beyond criticism. And these homes are usually for the well off so it doesn't seem "snobbish". I feel there's a general American culture of celebrating all things "big" — big homes, big cars, a symbol of materialism for consumptiion sake, there are plenty of other types that celebrate these things, I wouldn't feel bad.
Perhaps, but isn't it also a word that describes quickly built homes (similar to a "Mc"Donald's meal)? People call imitation brand-name leather purses and gold-plated watches "knock-offs". I'm not sure if it's meant to be condescending; they're functional (they hold objects and tell time), but the intricate high-quality of the real thing is missing as a trade-off for something that looks glamorous.
I wonder how much of the extra cost for real brand-name purses over imitation ones is for higher quality vs the brand name. There was an auction for a brand-name handbag in Toronto that I think was supposed to be worth $15,000 and they tried to justify the price by saying 18-20hrs of labour went into it. That might sound like a lot, until you figure out that it amounts to more than $750/hr. Although you might not get an as good result as the real deal paying someone in China $2/hr to make the handbag, you certainly could for say, $50/hr, so it should be possible to get an immitation purse that's equally high quality for a substantially reduced price, although it would be hard to tell if it was in fact high quality.
Back on topic though, I wouldn't necessarily consider large new homes on small lots McMansions, that's a term I would use mostly for poorly designed custom homes, or maybe for cheap, bland, but big tract homes in the middle of nowhere.
I also think the idea of old money is somewhat outdated. There's plenty of very rich people living in old homes who didn't inherit their money. The real new money aren't buying McMansions since they can afford better, it's more certain upper middle class people, who want to look wealthier than they are.
it's more certain upper middle class people, who want to look wealthier than they are.
Who are these people who buy a mcmansion to look wealthier than they are and what is your relation to them? (no, hearing about them on a reality tv show does not qualify)
I also think the idea of old money is somewhat outdated. There's plenty of very rich people living in old homes who didn't inherit their money. The real new money aren't buying McMansions since they can afford better, it's more certain upper middle class people, who want to look wealthier than they are.
I'm not sure if that's true. I suspect it's more people indifferent to architectural style but like big and may care less that it imitates a Mansion, just that it's big. I know one family in a McMansion sized house (custom built 3500 sq foot house maybe even a bit bigger) and then discovered they had trouble affording to air condition the whole house. I saw a similar house by the same builder than was small and I thought it was more tasteful.
Agree that the old money idea is outdated. The wealthy NYC suburbs are mostly the same Jewish/Catholic "white ethnic mix" as most other suburbs, with maybe a few exceptions. There was a thread one in NY forum of which are the most "WASPy NYC suburbs" and the frequent assumption that wealthy = WASPy were mostly wrong.
Perhaps, but isn't it also a word that describes quickly built homes (similar to a "Mc"Donald's meal)? People call imitation brand-name leather purses and gold-plated watches "knock-offs". I'm not sure if it's meant to be condescending; they're functional (they hold objects and tell time), but the intricate high-quality of the real thing is missing as a trade-off for something that looks glamorous.
This highlights one of the problems with the word, there are a number of definitions of the term and it is thrown around to mean many things. One thing I am pretty sure of, the derivation of the word was meant to insult, that is why I don't use the term.
You know if you count a finished basement new single family homes in some areas go for as low as 250,000 for 3500 square feet. Are they mcmansions? 3500 is not that much space considering real mansions are more like 10000. A 1900s 4 square is going to be 3500 as well with basement and attic bonus room, I doubt anyone here is considering that as a mcmansion. What people here really don't seem to like is actually just 'new houses'.
Small new houses have all the same aspects of large new houses except that the owners wish they could afford more space.
And as for those saying they all look the same and are too cookie cutter, that is b.s. as well because i don't see them levying those complaints against the san francisco painted ladies for example, which are pretty much carbon clones of each other all the way down the block (or any other cities celebrated historic row houses).
If you really just hate new houses that is fine, but stop trying to push it on only upper middle class houses saying 'they are too big' 'they copy tired old architectural styles' 'they mimic mansions' because your queen annes, 4 squares, and tudors all did the same things 100 years ago, only for styles and mansions 100 years before them. Such dis-ingeniousness certainly raises suspicion of jealousy or resentment towards a segment of the upper middle class.
You know if you count a finished basement new single family homes in some areas go for as low as 250,000 for 3500 square feet. Are they mcmansions? 3500 is not that much space considering real mansions are more like 10000. A 1900s 4 square is going to be 3500 as well with basement and attic bonus room, I doubt anyone here is considering that as a mcmansion. What people here really don't seem to like is actually just 'new houses'.
I own a four square, and it's about 1,400 sq ft. The basement isn't finished, but it's not really a finishable basement (drain in the middle, with inward tilted floors, etc). The attic is most certainly not finishable; ceiling is a little too low and you'd have to figure out how to create another staircase, which would be really difficult. The 1,400 sq ft includes a small addition someone put on the back (sun room), so it used to be closer to 1,200 sq. ft. Most of the four squares I've seen have been of a similar size, so I'd be really surprised if anyone could get a standard four square up to 3,000+ square feet without adding a big addition on the back. Even then, you'd have to finish the basement and attic too...I'm far from an expert on other four squares, but just my 2 cents.
None of that addresses the materials included in the build of some of these older houses (all plaster walls, full masonry).
Note: There was another thread about how much room people have per person (sq ft). Even if you have two children, 3,000 square feet is a lot of space (750 sq ft per person). My wife and I are looking to downsize in our impending move. We currently have around 700 sq. ft per person and it's just too much space for us (rooms that don't get used). 3,000 sq. ft may not seem like a lot of space for someone with four children plus pets.
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