Why does the United States have such bad public transportation? (Atlanta, area)

[jade408]

I haven't read the whole thread, but for me there are 2 key reasons.

1. The boom time in US development and building was in the era of the car. We grew up in the 1950s, and it was very American to support our American invention, the car. Europe grew up pre-car
2. Our culture celebrates individualism. Our DNA and our values are about being independent, doing it yourself. There is no sense of collectivism. We are individuals who fend for ourselves. Transit is to collective. When some countries wanted to provide housing and opportunity for their citizens, they build apartments in a city center. The US gave out 40 acres and a mule: you have the space to do with it what you will, but you are on your own.

We don't like to share, and transit is a lot of sharing.

[SavannahLife]

Originally Posted by Jimrob1

I say it like it is, I don't sugar coat things. America and many Americans just don't care about this subject. It definitely is an ignorance and arrogance factor, in this country on this subject. Both politicians and many Americans are responsible, for this lack of dealing with this problem.

You communist unpatriotic idiot, where else am I going to eat my McDonald's quarter pounders on the way home to eat more McDonald's quarter pounders? Typical elitist liberal never thinking about anything.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

I said:

OK, I see your point.

Originally Posted by jade408

I haven't read the whole thread, but for me there are 2 key reasons.

1. The boom time in US development and building was in the era of the car. We grew up in the 1950s, and it was very American to support our American invention, the car. Europe grew up pre-car
2. Our culture celebrates individualism. Our DNA and our values are about being independent, doing it yourself. There is no sense of collectivism. We are individuals who fend for ourselves. Transit is to collective. When some countries wanted to provide housing and opportunity for their citizens, they build apartments in a city center. The US gave out 40 acres and a mule: you have the space to do with it what you will, but you are on your own.

We don't like to share, and transit is a lot of sharing.

While I agree with point 1, I think point 2 is an exaggeration. Europe was also cultivated, etc long before the US. Some of their cities also got blown away in WW II and they had to start over.

[nei]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

What hasn't really been covered is the fraction of disposable income it costs to own and operate a car in the US compared to Europe. Wages are a bit lower in Europe than in the US since they've caught up and the more affluent European countries have passed the United States when looking at median household income. If you're in southern Europe, you make a lot less.

Except despite higher incomes, Germans use public transportation more than Italians.

If you're in northern Europe, you make about the same or a bit more. The difference is the middle class in Europe pays huge taxes. The median household in the US earning $50K with a mortgage and 1.4 kids is paying close to zero federal income taxes. They pay payroll taxes to the tune of 6.2% for FICA and 1.45 for Medicare and that's about it. Typical tax burden is about 15%. In Europe, it's more like 50%. Mortgage interest isn't deductible. Tax rates are much higher. On top of that, food is about 2x more expensive. Europeans don't have anything close to the disposable income of Americans.

I can't remember the link, but the difference isn't as big as it sounds, as a large part of the taxes are returned in universal benefits; and 50% sounds too high. You're also ignoring local taxes for a typical American household, for less affluent households, state and local taxes are usually more than federal taxes.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by Katarina Witt

OK, I see your point.



While I agree with point 1, I think point 2 is an exaggeration. Europe was also cultivated, etc long before the US. Some of their cities also got blown away in WW II and they had to start over.

But even in rebuilding, Europeans did not have the American concept of "if I can see your fireplace smoke from my front porch, you're too close" mentality.

[Tim Randal Walker]

I recall a book on urban planning (but neither title nor author) which devoted a chapter to the bicycle. A form of private transportation, but with far less need for space than cars.

I think that cycling would have a much brighter future than public transportation.

[Minato ku]

While Europeans may work closer and use less their cars, don't believe that the majority of European work next to their houses and use bike or public transportation to work.
Cars still rules and car ownership is not a luxury at all in Europe.

In France, 73% of the commutes to work are done by car (this includes truck and) van.
Note that the high size of Paris metropolitan area relative to France reduces this percentage (imagine if New York City metro area was almost 20% of United States population).
You need to see France without Paris to get a more accurate vision.
If we exclude Paris metropolitan area, then 80% of the commutes to work are done by car.

Outside of Paris metropolitan area, only 8% of the commutes to work are done by public transportation.
60% of the people who use public transportation to go at work in France live in Paris metropolitan area.

French census does not differentiate between motorcycles and bicycles.
That says it all about the importance of cycling.

You can see that there is two France, Paris where public transportation use is high and the rest of the country where car usage is high.
Paris is not poorer than the rest of the country, quite the opposite.

In Europe, if people don't use cars, it is not because they don't have the income to have a car but it is because it is more efficient to use public transport.
Only 9% of the people who live in Manhattan drive to work, yet it is one of the wealthy County in the United States. Why? Because it is faster or more convenient to use public transportation than driving.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Originally Posted by jade408

I haven't read the whole thread, but for me there are 2 key reasons.

1. The boom time in US development and building was in the era of the car. We grew up in the 1950s, and it was very American to support our American invention, the car. Europe grew up pre-car
2. .

And most U.S. cities sprawled, and generally have a low population density. In many, an old downtown may be the only truly urban area.

Which makes rail systems problematic. (As opposed to the bus, which can be considered a minimalist form of mass transit). I'm not saying that a new rail system couldn't be viable under particular circumstances….. But I suspect that those particular circumstances would be exceptions.

In terms of mechanized transport, the time to build rail was way back when, before the car became common enough to be competitive.

[chirack]

Originally Posted by Tim Randal Walker

And most U.S. cities sprawled, and generally have a low population density. In many, an old downtown may be the only truly urban area.

Which makes rail systems problematic. (As opposed to the bus, which can be considered a minimalist form of mass transit). I'm not saying that a new rail system couldn't be viable under particular circumstances….. But I suspect that those particular circumstances would be exceptions.

In terms of mechanized transport, the time to build rail was way back when, before the car became common enough to be competitive.

Many old downtowns had trolleys and some still have commuter rail. The car was competitive from day 1. I could probably drive an model T faster than a modern CTA bus. The problem with rail is that it can't go everywhere and street cars(if they share the street with other traffic) are not faster than the bus. Rail has higher fixed costs than buses which makes it less attractive.

[ssiguy]

I think Jade408 hit the nail on the head...............it's mostly cultural.

Americans like their space and embrace individualism. That certainly doesn't mean they don't care for their fellow citizens but it does mean that Americans view individual responsibility and independence far higher than nearly any country.

Americans prize their liberty and their liberty from government interference in their lives. Americans have a natural distrust of both governments and their intentions. Public transit, by it's very definition, is a public service provided for the masses and Americans often view government programs as a step towards socialism.

Public transit spending is seen as a way the government spends money for people to act communally while government money on roads is seen as the way governments spend money to enhance one's independence and individual liberty and mobility.

People will point to NYC & SF as a counter argument but the reality is that those cities simply reinforce the idea as NY & SF are the most "un-American" of all American cities.