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I was born and raised in the Denver metro area, and over the past few years, I have come to the realization that I have never really enjoyed living here. It seems that everyday, it feels more and more crowded here, and I'm growing tired of it. I'm tired of the snow and long winters, the idiotic drivers, the dry landscape, and the generally apathetic attitude that seems to be more and more pervasive in the city. I have 7 years experience as a painter, as well as other minor construction skills, but I intend to start a small business in Denver, and move the business sometime next year when we move to the NW. My wife works as a counselor at a youth treatment facility, though she is considering going back to school to finish her degree or changing careers as well. We visited Portland last year and fell in love with it, but we are open to moving anywhere in the area that best suits us, though we would like to be within reasonable driving distance to Portland, and personally, I'm leaning towards living in Washington. So, I have a few questions regarding your opinions:
Which state is most friendly to small business? I understand that WA has no income taxes, and OR taxes seem horrendous, but are there other underhanded ways that the state gets money out of you? On average, will a married couple pay less taxes on less than 100k yearly income in WA or OR, especially if you own a small business too?
Are there any well known youth treatment facilities in the area? How are job opportunities in the schools?
Are there any differences in the general attitudes of residents? How are the crime rates?
On average, will you end up paying more for utilities in WA or OR? Hows the internet situation?
When we visited Portland, we ran across a very cool little Datsun restoration shop in the industrial district, which is not something you would run into in Denver. My business involves custom work for cars. Hows the car culture in the area? How often do you see modded and classic cars? Are there any good driving roads close to the city?
Do you think the political situation is better in WA or OR? Which state seems to be better sorted?
My wife and I would like to eventually get to a semi rural area, close to necessary shopping but 30-45 mins drive to a bigger city. Are there any places like this in the area that are not horrendously expensive?
If you don't like it crowded, long, terrible winters (far, far worse than Denver IMO, I spent 9 months there in the dead of winter), hate idiotic drivers (I have never seen worse in all my travels), and don't care for cold, apathetic residents (Seattle freeze is real, people here are UNFRIENDLY); then Seattle would definietly NOT be the place for you. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as a transplant myself (who can't wait to escape next year) I have found it a difficult transition for some of those reasons. I know WA. isn't considered to be terribly small-business friendly either, but there are threads on that and members with more experience than I.
This isn't really the best place to move without some tech or high-demand educational degree (engineering, accounting, medical, etc.), the competition is very fierce and the job market is a lot worse than some will lead you to believe.
Crime can depend heavily on where you are, I know it's been pretty bad in the news here lately and appears to be on the rise, as well as crime from behind the badge (TONS of police brutality attention in recent years with federal oversight now). Funny enough, Seattle PD just made it easier for those with a criminal record to become cops...
As far as cars, if you don't drive an electric shoebox, you're sneered at on a regular basis in the urban areas. Outside of those, there are a decent amount of car enthusiasts with everything from modern cars to immaculate classics. There are also many, many great drives through the mountains and along the coasts.
Politics in OR. I can't expand on much, but this article shoudl give you an idea of how the general populous thinks in and around the Seattle-Metro:
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Mid 20's couple moved from Ft Collins to WA --- Circa 30+ yrs ago... BTDT
Import Car nut,
(Vancouver, WA... 10 min to PDX with out the 'Overhead' of OR) Politics ESPECIALLY. way weird... But LOTS to enjoy about visiting. I have done so several times / week for 30+ yrs (usually to get car parts for my fleet of VW diesels, or farm equip)
There is LOTS to like about the PNW. Unfortunately small Business is brutal in each, but I can lead you to the best options. (Be an independent consultant with NO CAPITAL equipment). Or move to ID. (that is where most of my SB clients end up going (I volunteer and work contract for SBDC & SBA helping small and midsized Businesses)). Plenty of car action in PNW, but VERY import centric You will find LOTS of shops in Portland Metro to gain info. PIR has vintage race days w/ lots of Datsuns.
You MUST live and WORK in WA. OR will take 9% of income if you work there and live in WA. You can shop in OR (no sales tax)
There are ways... and Vancouver / Portland Metro has LOTS of choices for your DW (career and edu and FUN / arts / adventure). Schools in Oregon are NOT funded well (WY and AK have GREAT funding). WA is so -so, but on the BETTER side.
I live 20 min east of I-205 on WA side and it is where I prefer due to Scenic Gorge. and LOTS of wind (reminds me of Home and WY). Less cloudy days, but more qty of rain (100" vs 47" of Drizzle in Vancouver / PDX) But... property taxes... OUCH from $800/ yr raised to $14,400/yr. THAT hurts. There are ways to mitigate that too if you are VERY creative. Most folks pay ~ $3,000 - $4,000. The assessor just happens to like my joint and HATES that I take him to court frequently, so he inflicts LOTS of pain.
If you BUY a place to live it MUST have LOTS of south facing windows and out of the trees (as tempting as trees are... they are DANGEROUS to live under, and DARK and Musty and mossy and needles in your gutters...) Many co-workers from CO moved to WA, and MANY divorced and or moved home within 2 yrs. (or went to AZ, CA, NM, UT, HI (i.e. SUN). I am NOT happy with the weather but I am not Alone, so... not MY decision to STAY. So I ESCAPE frequently thanks to $89 fare from PDX to DEN, AUS, SAT, SAN, ABQ, SLC, SFO, ... This winter I went MANY times to SAN (diego) for $28 each way (Spirit (HoBo) Air). Worth every CENT.
August is IDEAL for car shows, flowers, concerts in the park, FRESH wild berries, Salmon, Steelhead, Home-made Icecream, Wind surfing, motorcycles... come visit for a month or so., just be advised... election day it POURS and it is the last you will see of the sun till Easter (except for a week in Jan or Dec). Summer starts July 5th and ends for good on Nov1 (often earlier). Oct is usually pretty NICE unless you have kids that are playing soccer, then it will POUR. Same with spring baseball season.
As a young (20 something) couple we had a GREAT time, but WISHED we would have camped and rode bikes more, as we had in Colorado. in PNW you just get WET. but still do everything as normal (except wear overshoes and carry umbrella..). not allowed. They are considered Contra-band. as are Churches and Hymn books You will likely survive as long as you only bring a one way ticket... Such is life... we COULDN"T ever return to Colorado. Family issues. Denver, NEVER... can't stand the place... YMMV. I fly to COS if possible, or I fetch a $12 priceline car in DEN and head directly for WY. (since DIA is in Kansas,...)
other places to consider... ID as I mentioned. (far from coast...if that is a draw) Sandpoint is quite nice (and cold).
in WA look to Bellingham and if need drier, Wenatchee or Spokane.
If you REALLY like scenery... Islands, or Mtns, BUT Vancouver / Camas is tough to beat... Mt Hood, Mt St Helens, Columbia Gorge, and NICE Oregon coast are all within 1 hr.
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 05-09-2013 at 12:07 PM..
I too just relocated here from Colorado about 2 weeks ago. While i can't give any first hand comment on business here, anecdotally i have heard and seen lots of reasons to believe that WA is not small business friendly.
There are many reasons to consider moving here from Colorado, but as others have posted, I'm not sure it will be all you are looking for. I'm happy to help offline too.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Washington is not a great climate for small business, the government bends over backwards for big business, with all kinds of breaks to try and keep them here while small business is taxed whether they make a profit or not (Business and Occupation Tax, Employee Head Tax in some cities). With the income tax in Oregon you are probably better off living in Vancouver WA and having the business in Portland. At least that way your spouse will not be paying income tax if she works in WA. Unfortunately though, the best area for custom car related business is where the money is, Bellevue/Seattle. My business in Bellevue from 1993-2009 did work for several custom shops in Bellevue, and you'd be surprised to see how many people in Bellevue/Kirkland/Redmond/Sammamish/Issaquah have classics and custom in their garages.
Most only come out on dry days so you don't see them that often on the road, but there are weekly car shows all summer in Issaquah and others in the area (I drove my 72 El Camino daily as a shop truck).
Which state is most friendly to small business? I understand that WA has no income taxes, and OR taxes seem horrendous, but are there other underhanded ways that the state gets money out of you? On average, will a married couple pay less taxes on less than 100k yearly income in WA or OR, especially if you own a small business too?
I am from a bordering state to Colorado and spent a lot of time in Denver, now live in Seattle. The winters in Seattle are actually much better than Denver- not nearly as cold, not nearly as much snow (not much of any at all most years), and you don't have that depressing brown dead landscape to look at for half of the year. Sure it's cloudy and rains a lot, but at least it's still green- that is a huge, huge bonus to those of us used to the way winters look back in that area.
It depends on where in Washington you want to go- if you are in the Seattle metro area, be prepared to also feel like the area is growing fast, is crowded, etc. I think in that regard it's no different than Denver.
And I can't speak to the business climate, except to say it's not as bad here for small businesses as some will have you believe. There are lots of small businesses popping up all the time, many are successful, so though maybe it's not the MOST small business friendly state, it does not seem to be that bad of an environment for them.
I am from a bordering state to Colorado and spent a lot of time in Denver, now live in Seattle. The winters in Seattle are actually much better than Denver- not nearly as cold, not nearly as much snow (not much of any at all most years), and you don't have that depressing brown dead landscape to look at for half of the year. Sure it's cloudy and rains a lot, but at least it's still green- that is a huge, huge bonus to those of us used to the way winters look back in that area.
It depends on where in Washington you want to go- if you are in the Seattle metro area, be prepared to also feel like the area is growing fast, is crowded, etc. I think in that regard it's no different than Denver.
And I can't speak to the business climate, except to say it's not as bad here for small businesses as some will have you believe. There are lots of small businesses popping up all the time, many are successful, so though maybe it's not the MOST small business friendly state, it does not seem to be that bad of an environment for them.
My wife and I lived in Boulder for a very long time and the dead brown CANNOT be underestimated. I found that VASTLY more depressing that grey days or cloud cover. I'll take grey skies with year round green over dead brown any day. Colorado ended up being much too dry for our tastes as well.
EDIT - we're planning on a move to Washington state after med school. Nearly moved to Orcas Island when I was a software engineer. Love everything about the PNW.
My wife and I lived in Boulder for a very long time and the dead brown CANNOT be underestimated. I found that VASTLY more depressing that grey days or cloud cover. I'll take grey skies with year round green over dead brown any day. Colorado ended up being much too dry for our tastes as well.
Isn't it enough that the lawns and parks are green? Everywhere I look in Boulder on Google street view it's green. I guess it's brown in the winter but worse than overcast skies? Cannot comprehend! You still have green pine trees to look at. Plus you get awesome thunderstorms there. Hardly any here.
I love an overcast day every so often. But months on end, nooo.
Isn't it enough that the lawns and parks are green? Everywhere I look in Boulder on Google street view it's green. I guess it's brown in the winter but worse than overcast skies? Cannot comprehend! You still have green pine trees to look at. Plus you get awesome thunderstorms there. Hardly any here.
I love an overcast day every so often. But months on end, nooo.
Bottom line for us is that it's brown quite a bit and it wore on us. Colorado will always be a wonderful place for us to visit. We just won't live there again.
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You will likely survive as long as you only bring a one way ticket... Such is life... we COULDN"T ever return to Colorado. Family issues. Denver, NEVER... can't stand the place... YMMV. I fly to COS if possible, or I fetch a $12 priceline car in DEN and head directly for WY. (since DIA is in Kansas,...)
