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Actually, they can grow citrus in Charleston city, many people grow citrus in private gardens all along the Gulf Coast as well. Texas has large scale citrus production farms in the Corpus Christi area. However, I'm not sure the abilty to grow/or not grow citrus makes a city "subtropical" or not. True subtropical crops like rice, sugercane, cotten, will not grow in cities in southern Europe that are as mild as Charleston in winter. Why? Becasue most of the year they are too cold. A few days of the year, normally doesn't determin the overall climate of any location, or so Koppen says (lol).
I know we are kind of straying off topic here, but I don't recall ever hearing farmers at the latitude of Orlando in every other location in the world struggling to salvage the citrus crops from hard freezes. Maybe someone from Europe or Aus can chime in and let us know. It seems to only happen here. Same for deep south Texas. These locations are below latitude 30 and closer to 25. That is crazy. The odd, mightily protected citrus tree in Charleston or Galveston doesn't cut it. They can barely grow it in central FL and deep S. Texas without all kinds of warming measures.
I do consider citrus more sub-tropical than rice or cotton, but not sugarcane. Citrus needs warm winter days and can tolerate below 32, but not 20's, at least not for long hours. And the trees themselves die if exposed to temp's in the teens, which is why you won't see groves of them in SC.
I know we are kind of straying off topic here, but I don't recall ever hearing farmers at the latitude of Orlando in every other location in the world struggling to salvage the citrus crops from hard freezes. Maybe someone from Europe or Aus can chime in and let us know. It seems to only happen here. Same for deep south Texas. These locations are below latitude 30 and closer to 25. That is crazy. The odd, mightily protected citrus tree in Charleston or Galveston doesn't cut it. They can barely grow it in central FL and deep S. Texas without all kinds of warming measures.
I do consider citrus more sub-tropical than rice or cotton, but not sugarcane. Citrus needs warm winter days and can tolerate below 32, but not 20's, at least not for long hours. And the trees themselves die if exposed to temp's in the teens, which is why you won't see groves of them in SC.
Yes, for their latitude – the Asian and American subtropics have colder means/absolute lows/and more frequent cool shots than the subtropical zones in the small continents like Australia…and in the case of South America, its narrowness south of 35 latitude keeps truly cold air masses in check. Size it seems matter in terms of cold I guess.
As far as citrus… I’m no expert so you got me on what grows where. Yes, oranges not a production fruit in South Carolina/Charleston. The oranges I have seen in Charleston have all been in small, private, courtyard gardens. However, saying citrus “barley grows” in Florida might be a little inaccurate: Florida is the number 2 orange producer in the world – only Brazil produces more oranges. The state of Florida produces more oranges than entire country of Australia. As far as deep south Texas, yes, while subject to fleeting freezes there are massive orange growing operations, and they growing each year. From what I have read - Texas, combined with Florida, a small area of southern Arizona, and interior southern California – produces more citrus crops - than any single nation on earth.
Even this year, despite a freeze in San Diego, snow and severe freeze in Arizona, record cold on the Gulf Coast, and a low of 36 F in Miami, citrus prices in the USA have been unaffected from what I’ve read. So even in this year of record cold…it appears the southern USA has no trouble producing citrus.
I know we are kind of straying off topic here, but I don't recall ever hearing farmers at the latitude of Orlando in every other location in the world struggling to salvage the citrus crops from hard freezes. Maybe someone from Europe or Aus can chime in and let us know. It seems to only happen here. Same for deep south Texas. These locations are below latitude 30 and closer to 25. That is crazy. The odd, mightily protected citrus tree in Charleston or Galveston doesn't cut it. They can barely grow it in central FL and deep S. Texas without all kinds of warming measures.
I do consider citrus more sub-tropical than rice or cotton, but not sugarcane. Citrus needs warm winter days and can tolerate below 32, but not 20's, at least not for long hours. And the trees themselves die if exposed to temp's in the teens, which is why you won't see groves of them in SC.
The warming measures used on citrus during arctic outbreaks which occur every 4-5 years or so in Deep South Texas and Central Florida are used to protect the FRUIT. It freezes just below 32F and causes the fruit to loose it's juice(the ice crystals crack the skins). Nobody is going to buy dry citrus.
The actual trees, except for limes and pumelos, are not fazed by freezing temperatures. Oranges can withstand mid 20s with just slight defoliation to the newest leaves, Grapefruits a little lower. Tangerines and Mandarins are the hardiest.
Regarding your comment on "no citrus grows in Charleston", citrus is the fruit from a tree in the genus Citrus. There are many species and hybrids, mostly of the mandarin lineage hardy well into the low teens, possibly a tad lower.
Galveston, Texas is much warmer then you think. Between 1996 and 2009, Galveston did not drop below 30F once. That's warmer then Orlando and Tampa, which both average a freeze about every other year(of course Galveston is cooler in the winter, but summer lows are 80F!) The past two years have been colder although lows are still quite milder then what the USDA says, 28 and 27 respectfully. Short term, Galveston can average solid Zone 10a temperatures, and long term is 9b, definitely not 9a (as evidenced by 30+ foot Royal Palms, and flowering Royal Poinciana both of which die at around 25F). Citrus, with the exception of limes and pumelos, is completely hardy there (outside of 1989 type events, which are 100 year freezes), although the fruit may be damaged every few years. Galveston is nothing like Charleston, it seems to be an anomaly since it is much warmer then it's Florida latitude equivalent.
I find the best way to see what lows are like in the subtropics is to observe the ocean temperatures.
Interestingly, it is said before 1899, citrus extended far north into the Carolinas before being pushed back far south into Florida by the great 500 year freeze of 1899. Avocados were said to have been grown in Georgia and Royal Palms were reported on the St. John's River near Jacksonville, Florida.
The problem with the southern U.S. is the unpredictability of the winters, Galveston's record low is 8F in 1899, but many years can can by without a freeze at all. The warmest years may not even go below 35F.
Yes, for their latitude – the Asian and American subtropics have colder means/absolute lows/and more frequent cool shots than the subtropical zones in the small continents like Australia…and in the case of South America, its narrowness south of 35 latitude keeps truly cold air masses in check. Size it seems matter in terms of cold I guess.
As far as citrus… I’m no expert so you got me on what grows where. Yes, oranges not a production fruit in South Carolina/Charleston. The oranges I have seen in Charleston have all been in small, private, courtyard gardens. However, saying citrus “barley grows” in Florida might be a little inaccurate: Florida is the number 2 orange producer in the world – only Brazil produces more oranges. The state of Florida produces more oranges than entire country of Australia. As far as deep south Texas, yes, while subject to fleeting freezes there are massive orange growing operations, and they growing each year. From what I have read - Texas, combined with Florida, a small area of southern Arizona, and interior southern California – produces more citrus crops - than any single nation on earth.
Even this year, despite a freeze in San Diego, snow and severe freeze in Arizona, record cold on the Gulf Coast, and a low of 36 F in Miami, citrus prices in the USA have been unaffected from what I’ve read. So even in this year of record cold…it appears the southern USA has no trouble producing citrus.
The warming measures used on citrus during arctic outbreaks which occur every 4-5 years or so in Deep South Texas and Central Florida are used to protect the FRUIT. It freezes just below 32F and causes the fruit to loose it's juice(the ice crystals crack the skins). Nobody is going to buy dry citrus.
The actual trees, except for limes and pumelos, are not fazed by freezing temperatures. Oranges can withstand mid 20s with just slight defoliation to the newest leaves, Grapefruits a little lower. Tangerines and Mandarins are the hardiest.
Regarding your comment on "no citrus grows in Charleston", citrus is the fruit from a tree in the genus Citrus. There are many species and hybrids, mostly of the mandarin lineage hardy well into the low teens, possibly a tad lower.
Galveston, Texas is much warmer then you think. Between 1996 and 2009, Galveston did not drop below 30F once. That's warmer then Orlando and Tampa, which both average a freeze about every other year(of course Galveston is cooler in the winter, but summer lows are 80F!) The past two years have been colder although lows are still quite milder then what the USDA says, 28 and 27 respectfully. Short term, Galveston can average solid Zone 10a temperatures, and long term is 9b, definitely not 9a (as evidenced by 30+ foot Royal Palms, and flowering Royal Poinciana both of which die at around 25F). Citrus, with the exception of limes and pumelos, is completely hardy there (outside of 1989 type events, which are 100 year freezes), although the fruit may be damaged every few years. Galveston is nothing like Charleston, it seems to be an anomaly since it is much warmer then it's Florida latitude equivalent.
I find the best way to see what lows are like in the subtropics is to observe the ocean temperatures.
Interestingly, it is said before 1899, citrus extended far north into the Carolinas before being pushed back far south into Florida by the great 500 year freeze of 1899. Avocados were said to have been grown in Georgia and Royal Palms were reported on the St. John's River near Jacksonville, Florida.
The problem with the southern U.S. is the unpredictability of the winters, Galveston's record low is 8F in 1899, but many years can can by without a freeze at all. The warmest years may not even go below 35F.
From what I understand the freeze in either the late 80's or early 90's killed off quite a few citrus trees in S. Texas and nearly wiped the crop out for good. Also, I wonder why it is the S. Texas only seems to grow grapefruit and not much orange. Is grapefruit more cold tolerant? The freeze of 1899 notwithstanding, I cannot imagine anyone growing citrus with any success in the Carolinas or Georgia today. The yearly winter lows would just wipe the crop out. In a relatively normal month in Columbia SC the low was 13. Citrus trees cannot survive that.
From what I understand the freeze in either the late 80's or early 90's killed off quite a few citrus trees in S. Texas and nearly wiped the crop out for good. Also, I wonder why it is the S. Texas only seems to grow grapefruit and not much orange. Is grapefruit more cold tolerant? The freeze of 1899 notwithstanding, I cannot imagine anyone growing citrus with any success in the Carolinas or Georgia today. The yearly winter lows would just wipe the crop out. In a relatively normal month in Columbia SC the low was 13. Citrus trees cannot survive that.
South Texas is famous for it's grapefruit (Rio/Ruby Red) and it does well in the alluvial soil. Oranges are also produced but not as much as Grapefruit, but are still a major crop. Grapefruits are only a tad hardier (1-2F) then oranges, but it really doesn't make much of a difference in the long term. Most of the oranges sold here in Houston are from Texas.
The 1800s before 1899 was an abnormally warm period.
I agree with you there….cities like Brisbane, Gold Coast, Port Mac, …etc are true humid subtropical stations, just as Perth is subtropical (only Cs type like San Diego, LA…etc). I was comparing cities like Charleston, New Orleans, Houston, ..etc with subtropical Australian cities like Sydney, Canberra, Newcastle, ...etc. To be fair to the word “subtropical”…I can’t in good faith call a city like Sydney, Canberra, Adelaide, and much North Island, New Zealand subtropical – they just are too cool in the warm season. To me subtropical locations should have at least a few months ( even if only 3 months long) with mean temps of 76/77 F or higher….just as you would find in the hot season in true tropical places (Caribbean, Vietnam, Central America, Brazil…etc).
Yet, cities like Sydney have summers as cool as Salt Lake City, Chicago, or Boston. I have spent a summer in each of those locations, and while warm… they are a far cry from the unrelenting heat, sun, and change in air mass you experience in a true subtropical climate like New Orleans, Charleston…etc. Look at it this way. If a Boreal (subarctic) climate had warm winters…would it deserve the Boreal designations.The fleeting cool shots that the subtropical zone in the deep south gets last a few days on avaergae...but the cool summers that cities like Sydney has lasts three or four months. The greater outweighs the less IMO.
At times I really think when you look at the cloudiness, cool summer mean temps, seasonal rainfall profiles…etc…of subtropical cities like Sydney, Canberra, North Island, NZ are really just a glorified oceanic climates in fact.
This is not necessarily true. There are subarctic maritime climates which have relatively mild winters and they are still called subarctic even though their winters bear no resemblance to somewhere like Yellowknife or Verkhoyansk.
Reykjavik, Iceland and Sitka, AK come to mind as examples of this.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007
Yes, for their latitude – the Asian and American subtropics have colder means/absolute lows/and more frequent cool shots than the subtropical zones in the small continents like Australia…and in the case of South America, its narrowness south of 35 latitude keeps truly cold air masses in check. Size it seems matter in terms of cold I guess.
As far as citrus… I’m no expert so you got me on what grows where. Yes, oranges not a production fruit in South Carolina/Charleston. The oranges I have seen in Charleston have all been in small, private, courtyard gardens. However, saying citrus “barley grows” in Florida might be a little inaccurate: Florida is the number 2 orange producer in the world – only Brazil produces more oranges. The state of Florida produces more oranges than entire country of Australia. As far as deep south Texas, yes, while subject to fleeting freezes there are massive orange growing operations, and they growing each year. From what I have read - Texas, combined with Florida, a small area of southern Arizona, and interior southern California – produces more citrus crops - than any single nation on earth.
Even this year, despite a freeze in San Diego, snow and severe freeze in Arizona, record cold on the Gulf Coast, and a low of 36 F in Miami, citrus prices in the USA have been unaffected from what I’ve read. So even in this year of record cold…it appears the southern USA has no trouble producing citrus.
Freezes and other extreme cold events probably aren't a good way to classify 'sub-tropical', as places like Florida are pretty warm despite the odd freeze. If that were so, you'd have to classify a climate like Hobart sub-tropical, where the extreme low is a mere -2.8C, warmer than Miami.
Oranges grow all throughout SW WA, actually, but are pretty scarce in places like Bridgetown where I live which get a few frosts every year. They grow alot of oranges in the Murray valley which commonly dips below 0C in winter, but doesn't really go below -5C or so.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,060,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78
This is not necessarily true. There are subarctic maritime climates which have relatively mild winters and they are still called subarctic even though their winters bear no resemblance to somewhere like Yellowknife or Verkhoyansk.
Reykjavik, Iceland and Sitka, AK come to mind as examples of this.
I don't think cool summers necessarily disquality a place being subtropical either. For me, winter warmth is far more important in defining a sub-tropical climate than summer heat is. I consider equatorial climates up to about 2500 metres to have equatorial climates, above which they are alpine, despite the fact they do not have the oppressive summer heat of lowland tropical climes. To me wind patterns, pressure systems etc are more important in defining climates than temperatures alone.
Freezes and other extreme cold events probably aren't a good way to classify 'sub-tropical', as places like Florida are pretty warm despite the odd freeze. If that were so, you'd have to classify a climate like Hobart sub-tropical, where the extreme low is a mere -2.8C, warmer than Miami.
Oranges grow all throughout SW WA, actually, but are pretty scarce in places like Bridgetown where I live which get a few frosts every year. They grow alot of oranges in the Murray valley which commonly dips below 0C in winter, but doesn't really go below -5C or so.
I agree 100% with that as well.
Extremes should never be use to classify a climate. No doubt Hobart is a good example of that (as well as other highly marine climates in the southern Hemisphere). Also, even in terms of extremes – so many things go into what makes a extreme (how long is the data record, topography, instrument exposure issues...etc), that this can be a risky way to classify a climate. At worst, using extremes can create a very misleading image or perspective on a climate. Hobart’s record low is a good example: Brisbane 700- miles closer to the equator (located deep in the humid subtropics, with many of the classic signatures of a semi-tropical climate) – has a record low of 2.5 C...colder than cool, temperate Horbart. The fact that weather records are longer at Brisbane (and who knows what other issues there might be) may not be considered by someone who just takes that data at face value.
As far as where oranges grow as a means to define a climate...I think that can be an error as well: There are many, many places where gardners grow oranges in their garden...however large scale agricultural production of oranges is quite another thing. Here in the USA, the citrus/orange production industry is so massive in Florida, Texas, Arizona, and southern California that there is little commercial interest in trying to grown them on other areas of the far southern USA.
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