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I know climate is not an exact science as there are many different variations but I think the current system of climate classification is far too broad as it unnecessarily lumps climates in together that really have very little in common.
What do Tulsa, OK and Durban, South Africa have in common? Very little. They are both "subtropical" but vastly different. Same could be said about Reykjavik, Iceland and Yellowknife, NT. They are both "subarctic" but have very little in common.
Of course there has to be a point where we can't divide any further but I would say there needs to be at least double the number of current Koppen classifications for there to make any kind of sense out of things.
and yes, calling Tulsa, OK subtropical is silly in my opinion. They get on average almost twice the amount of frosts per year as here in Vancouver and their record low is 10C colder than here as well. I think a better description could be "warm temperate continental".
That seems a bit like using a technical definition to settle a discussion that has been largely subjective in nature. It is useful to understand the "big picture" first and foremost with regard to climate discussions, but if we relied solely on that approach, there wouldn't be much to talk about.
Lets never stop talking about climate/weather, that’s what makes this site so interesting! As MM as said, we might be beating a dead horse - but since I’m chained here waiting for yet another office FedEx, let me ramble some more…
Since we all live in different regions it’s not surprising that we might see things quite differently: This issue of what the parameters are of being “subtropical” is the perfect example. This is nothing new in the study of climate or science itself. We should consider ourselves wise folks for trying to understand how/why Koppen, Trewartha, and others might have classified climates...or at least their thinking process. Although there were many climate classifications going back to the Greeks...it’s reasonable to say that by 1900 when Koppen created his climate classification...and certainly by 1968 when Trewartha refined it...science had advanced enough for us to see how things are linked together, or what are their “genetics”. It seems that Koppen and Trewartha even more - tried to group climate zones using genetic factors (e.g., air masses, wind zones, patterns in the general circulation of the atmosphere...etc), at least to some extent.
Take Polar climates (above 65 -70 N/S) for example: Although there are some differences in temperature and precipitation in polar climates from the Northern Hemisphere to the Southern Hemisphere… from western Greenland to Vostok…from Sagastyr to Upernivik...etc –the genetics of all these locations are very much the same: For instance genetics has given ALL these locations a very high latitude, the ALL have polar easterlies, the ALL have 6 months of darkerness, 6 months of light, the ALL have prevailing aridity...etc. So while each geographic region in the Polar climate zone might have slightly different reflections of temps and precip...their genetics are all the same.
The same applies to their grouping of subtropical climates (Cs/Cf). The fact that Cf Mobile, Al is 10 F warmer than Cf Shanghai in January (though they are at similar latitude)… or that Cs Mediterranean Europe is wetter and stormier than Cs Mediterranean California…that Cf Orlando is hotter than Cf Brisbane in the hot season...etc is really just the static of the genetics. The main genetics of ALL these climates is mostly the same: Cs California and Cs Europe BOTH are located on the east sides of the subtropical highs, thus they BOTH are areas of subsidence and aridity in summer, they BOTH come under the control of the cyclonic westeriles for a few months in the cold season,...etc. The same is true for the Humid subtropical zone - Cf Fuzon, Cf Charleston, and Cf Brisbane: ALL THREE are located on the west side of the subtropical highs where there is some reflection of a monsoon (seasonal change in wind direction)…ALL THREE see a big increase in humidity/rainfall/sultry conditions at the time of high sun…ALLL THREE are subject to typhoons...ect. The fact that Brisbane is 10 F warmer than Fuzon, that Califorina is much drier than Mediterranean Europe ...etc is irrevelent. While each of these locations might be different from each other...it is their genetics that binds them into the same climate type.
In fact, my thinking a climate like Sydney is more Temperate Oceanic (Do)” in its character, and has no business being placed in the same group as the Cf Brisbane, Charleston, Fuzon, Galveston…etc because it lacks a long hot season - is really a local expectation of what the subtropics is - and likely an error since Trewartha places most of East Coast Australia, and even much of North Island, NZ into the Cf zone. Perhaps Sydney has more of these “genetic” factors than I realize – since I really don’t ‘have a good understanding of a place like Sydney in an air mass or pressure pattern way.
This issue of vegetation and what palms, citrus, sugarcane…etc grows where, while interesting (and shows what some climates are/ are not capable of)…doesn’t change the genetics of a climate. The best example of this is palm cultivation: “Subtropical gardening” seems to be the new trend in the warmer areas of the Temperate zone. In many areas of the world located north of subtropical climates people are successfully (in different degrees) cultivating palms and other hardy subtropicals. You might look in a private garden today in London, Washington DC, Vancouver, Paris, Tokyo,…etc and spot a palm, hardy citrus tree, or other (I have even walked down this path in my gardening myself). However, it’s common for many folks who engage in this type of gardening to get the delusion that their climate is somehow “almost subtropical” or that there climate has the “stability” of the subtropics. Of course from a basic genetic climate perspective - that is silly. This especially true for locations in stormy Temperate Oceanic (Do) higher latitude climates like Seattle, Vancouver, London, ect:
The “genetics” of Temperate Oceanic climates (Do) are of course the complete opposite of subtropical climates: Unlike subtropical climates – Temperate Oceanic climates are located astride some of the stormiest areas on earth: The frequent cyclonic storms 8 out of 12 months a year, cool annual temperatures, constant changing air pressure gradients, dominate cool oceanic air masses, chronic lack of high pressure most of the year, low heat energy, prevalent cloudiness…etc all stand in sharp contrast to the genetics of subtropical climates, where high pressure, sunny skies, chronic drought, and stable weather are the rule much of the year. The fact that a palm tree will grow in Charleston/Galveston…and also in Vancouver/ London…in no way makes these climates anywhere close to the same.
I think this is what Koppen…and especially Trewartha was thinking when he tried to create his climate zones. Maybe, but who knows.
Galveston is nothing like Charleston! :facepalm:
Here are 30+ foot Royal Palms (barely alive due to February 2011, the worst winter since 1996, but definitely not dead, they were pushing new growth) at Moody Gardens. Royal Palms are native to the Everglades and Cuba, commonly used to line streets in Miami. You won't find them much further north then Orlando in Florida and even there they are marginal. They wouldn't stand a chance in Charleston, as they would be dead by late November. The lowest temperature in the last 15 years is only 25F! Most years, Galveston doesn't even drop below freezing. While Charleston records low 20sF in almost every month of winter.
I have also attached a picture of a rubber tree, a true tropical growing fine in Galveston. Please don't lump Charleston and Galveston as they are vastly different in winter.
Lets never stop talking about climate/weather, that’s what makes this site so interesting! As MM as said, we might be beating a dead horse - but since I’m chained here waiting for yet another office FedEx, let me ramble some more…
Since we all live in different regions it’s not surprising that we might see things quite differently: This issue of what the parameters are of being “subtropical” is the perfect example. This is nothing new in the study of climate or science itself. We should consider ourselves wise folks for trying to understand how/why Koppen, Trewartha, and others might have classified climates...or at least their thinking process. Although there were many climate classifications going back to the Greeks...it’s reasonable to say that by 1900 when Koppen created his climate classification...and certainly by 1968 when Trewartha refined it...science had advanced enough for us to see how things are linked together, or what are their “genetics”. It seems that Koppen and Trewartha even more - tried to group climate zones using genetic factors (e.g., air masses, wind zones, patterns in the general circulation of the atmosphere...etc), at least to some extent.
Take Polar climates (above 65 -70 N/S) for example: Although there are some differences in temperature and precipitation in polar climates from the Northern Hemisphere to the Southern Hemisphere… from western Greenland to Vostok…from Sagastyr to Upernivik...etc –the genetics of all these locations are very much the same: For instance genetics has given ALL these locations a very high latitude, the ALL have polar easterlies, the ALL have 6 months of darkerness, 6 months of light, the ALL have prevailing aridity...etc. So while each geographic region in the Polar climate zone might have slightly different reflections of temps and precip...their genetics are all the same.
The same applies to their grouping of subtropical climates (Cs/Cf). The fact that Cf Mobile, Al is 10 F warmer than Cf Shanghai in January (though they are at similar latitude)… or that Cs Mediterranean Europe is wetter and stormier than Cs Mediterranean California…that Cf Orlando is hotter than Cf Brisbane in the hot season...etc is really just the static of the genetics. The main genetics of ALL these climates is mostly the same: Cs California and Cs Europe BOTH are located on the east sides of the subtropical highs, thus they BOTH are areas of subsidence and aridity in summer, they BOTH come under the control of the cyclonic westeriles for a few months in the cold season,...etc. The same is true for the Humid subtropical zone - Cf Fuzon, Cf Charleston, and Cf Brisbane: ALL THREE are located on the west side of the subtropical highs where there is some reflection of a monsoon (seasonal change in wind direction)…ALL THREE see a big increase in humidity/rainfall/sultry conditions at the time of high sun…ALLL THREE are subject to typhoons...ect. The fact that Brisbane is 10 F warmer than Fuzon, that Califorina is much drier than Mediterranean Europe ...etc is irrevelent. While each of these locations might be different from each other...it is their genetics that binds them into the same climate type.
In fact, my thinking a climate like Sydney is more Temperate Oceanic (Do)” in its character, and has no business being placed in the same group as the Cf Brisbane, Charleston, Fuzon, Galveston…etc because it lacks a long hot season - is really a local expectation of what the subtropics is - and likely an error since Trewartha places most of East Coast Australia, and even much of North Island, NZ into the Cf zone. Perhaps Sydney has more of these “genetic” factors than I realize – since I really don’t ‘have a good understanding of a place like Sydney in an air mass or pressure pattern way.
This issue of vegetation and what palms, citrus, sugarcane…etc grows where, while interesting (and shows what some climates are/ are not capable of)…doesn’t change the genetics of a climate. The best example of this is palm cultivation: “Subtropical gardening” seems to be the new trend in the warmer areas of the Temperate zone. In many areas of the world located north of subtropical climates people are successfully (in different degrees) cultivating palms and other hardy subtropicals. You might look in a private garden today in London, Washington DC, Vancouver, Paris, Tokyo,…etc and spot a palm, hardy citrus tree, or other (I have even walked down this path in my gardening myself). However, it’s common for many folks who engage in this type of gardening to get the delusion that their climate is somehow “almost subtropical” or that there climate has the “stability” of the subtropics. Of course from a basic genetic climate perspective - that is silly. This especially true for locations in stormy Temperate Oceanic (Do) higher latitude climates like Seattle, Vancouver, London, ect:
The “genetics” of Temperate Oceanic climates (Do) are of course the complete opposite of subtropical climates: Unlike subtropical climates – Temperate Oceanic climates are located astride some of the stormiest areas on earth: The frequent cyclonic storms 8 out of 12 months a year, cool annual temperatures, constant changing air pressure gradients, dominate cool oceanic air masses, chronic lack of high pressure most of the year, low heat energy, prevalent cloudiness…etc all stand in sharp contrast to the genetics of subtropical climates, where high pressure, sunny skies, chronic drought, and stable weather are the rule much of the year. The fact that a palm tree will grow in Charleston/Galveston…and also in Vancouver/ London…in no way makes these climates anywhere close to the same.
I think this is what Koppen…and especially Trewartha was thinking when he tried to create his climate zones. Maybe, but who knows.
I see your point, but your def of sub-tropics is more climate science driven, and I think most lay people don't give a hoot about air masses, wind zones, etc. I realize that on this board pretty much no one agrees with me about how warm a sub-tropical winter should be, or that it shouldn't be 70 one day and 40 the next. I think what comes to mind for the average person is that if an area is sub-tropical you shouldn't have to deal with cold weather (I mean real cold, like below freezing) on a regular basis, particularly in the winter. When I look at the weather for Sydney in their winter I don't see those swings. It is usually always upper 50's to low 60's with the occasional cold spell and warm spell. Can a truly continental climate above lat 30 be considered sub-tropical by the average lay person? Shouldn't stability of the temps play into classification somehow? Maybe not. I enjoy the discussion though.
Tropical climate, hot all year round, 80 and above. Sub-tropical over 80 in summer, and mid 50's above in winter with a few frosts. That is my take.
I did an informal poll where I work (Engineering) and almost no one thinks that a sub-tropical climate should have a low of 13 in a normal winter (Columbia, SC or Vicksburg, MS or Montgomery, AL, etc, etc.).
Here are 30+ foot Royal Palms (barely alive due to February 2011, the worst winter since 1996, but definitely not dead, they were pushing new growth) at Moody Gardens. Royal Palms are native to the Everglades and Cuba, commonly used to line streets in Miami. You won't find them much further north then Orlando in Florida and even there they are marginal.
Wow, that’s really interesting;
I knew Galveston was quite mild in winter...but not that mild (lol). When you consider that the coastal plain of the Gulf of Mexico is fed by deep tropical air from the Northwest Caribbean for many months of the year, I could see Royals growing there. Your right, that is a fully tropical palm that they grow in Cuba, Miami, Kingston, the Bahamas,…etc. I think you do see royals around Melbourne and Tampa, but I’m not quite sure.
I know they need many months of 80's...how many days of the year average above 80 F in Galveston?
Lets never stop talking about climate/weather, that’s what makes this site so interesting! As MM as said, we might be beating a dead horse - but since I’m chained here waiting for yet another office FedEx, let me ramble some more…
Since we all live in different regions it’s not surprising that we might see things quite differently: This issue of what the parameters are of being “subtropical” is the perfect example. This is nothing new in the study of climate or science itself. We should consider ourselves wise folks for trying to understand how/why Koppen, Trewartha, and others might have classified climates...or at least their thinking process. Although there were many climate classifications going back to the Greeks...it’s reasonable to say that by 1900 when Koppen created his climate classification...and certainly by 1968 when Trewartha refined it...science had advanced enough for us to see how things are linked together, or what are their “genetics”. It seems that Koppen and Trewartha even more - tried to group climate zones using genetic factors (e.g., air masses, wind zones, patterns in the general circulation of the atmosphere...etc), at least to some extent.
Take Polar climates (above 65 -70 N/S) for example: Although there are some differences in temperature and precipitation in polar climates from the Northern Hemisphere to the Southern Hemisphere… from western Greenland to Vostok…from Sagastyr to Upernivik...etc –the genetics of all these locations are very much the same: For instance genetics has given ALL these locations a very high latitude, the ALL have polar easterlies, the ALL have 6 months of darkerness, 6 months of light, the ALL have prevailing aridity...etc. So while each geographic region in the Polar climate zone might have slightly different reflections of temps and precip...their genetics are all the same.
The same applies to their grouping of subtropical climates (Cs/Cf). The fact that Cf Mobile, Al is 10 F warmer than Cf Shanghai in January (though they are at similar latitude)… or that Cs Mediterranean Europe is wetter and stormier than Cs Mediterranean California…that Cf Orlando is hotter than Cf Brisbane in the hot season...etc is really just the static of the genetics. The main genetics of ALL these climates is mostly the same: Cs California and Cs Europe BOTH are located on the east sides of the subtropical highs, thus they BOTH are areas of subsidence and aridity in summer, they BOTH come under the control of the cyclonic westeriles for a few months in the cold season,...etc. The same is true for the Humid subtropical zone - Cf Fuzon, Cf Charleston, and Cf Brisbane: ALL THREE are located on the west side of the subtropical highs where there is some reflection of a monsoon (seasonal change in wind direction)…ALL THREE see a big increase in humidity/rainfall/sultry conditions at the time of high sun…ALLL THREE are subject to typhoons...ect. The fact that Brisbane is 10 F warmer than Fuzon, that Califorina is much drier than Mediterranean Europe ...etc is irrevelent. While each of these locations might be different from each other...it is their genetics that binds them into the same climate type.
In fact, my thinking a climate like Sydney is more Temperate Oceanic (Do)” in its character, and has no business being placed in the same group as the Cf Brisbane, Charleston, Fuzon, Galveston…etc because it lacks a long hot season - is really a local expectation of what the subtropics is - and likely an error since Trewartha places most of East Coast Australia, and even much of North Island, NZ into the Cf zone. Perhaps Sydney has more of these “genetic” factors than I realize – since I really don’t ‘have a good understanding of a place like Sydney in an air mass or pressure pattern way.
This issue of vegetation and what palms, citrus, sugarcane…etc grows where, while interesting (and shows what some climates are/ are not capable of)…doesn’t change the genetics of a climate. The best example of this is palm cultivation: “Subtropical gardening” seems to be the new trend in the warmer areas of the Temperate zone. In many areas of the world located north of subtropical climates people are successfully (in different degrees) cultivating palms and other hardy subtropicals. You might look in a private garden today in London, Washington DC, Vancouver, Paris, Tokyo,…etc and spot a palm, hardy citrus tree, or other (I have even walked down this path in my gardening myself). However, it’s common for many folks who engage in this type of gardening to get the delusion that their climate is somehow “almost subtropical” or that there climate has the “stability” of the subtropics. Of course from a basic genetic climate perspective - that is silly. This especially true for locations in stormy Temperate Oceanic (Do) higher latitude climates like Seattle, Vancouver, London, ect:
The “genetics” of Temperate Oceanic climates (Do) are of course the complete opposite of subtropical climates: Unlike subtropical climates – Temperate Oceanic climates are located astride some of the stormiest areas on earth: The frequent cyclonic storms 8 out of 12 months a year, cool annual temperatures, constant changing air pressure gradients, dominate cool oceanic air masses, chronic lack of high pressure most of the year, low heat energy, prevalent cloudiness…etc all stand in sharp contrast to the genetics of subtropical climates, where high pressure, sunny skies, chronic drought, and stable weather are the rule much of the year. The fact that a palm tree will grow in Charleston/Galveston…and also in Vancouver/ London…in no way makes these climates anywhere close to the same.
I think this is what Koppen…and especially Trewartha was thinking when he tried to create his climate zones. Maybe, but who knows.
I can agree with the majority of that. Understanding (or trying to) the science behind a definition is the starting base for any meaningful discussion as I see it. The discussion was primarily subjective in nature though. Trying to put the winter in a practical context, whether one agreed or not, seemed to be the focus.
I don't think of Charleston as anything but subtropical, and it would take me a long while to find around anyone here who thinks we live in the subtropics. Practical considerations of climate are a different matter. From my (gardening )perspective, Charleston gets brutally cold. A typical winter there, would be devastating here. Plants we take for granted here, wouldn't survive there. Subtropical gardening may be a recent trend but most of the plants in that category have been growing around here for a long time. As I see it, Charleston isn't really a place for a big range of palms, but the ones that do well, will thrive. Here can grow a bigger range of palms, but without the faster growth of somewhere like SC. The classification isn't the most important factor in that regard.
Cool maritime is the best definition of the climate in NZ, but a very regular flow of migratory high pressure systems over NZ provides a degree of "stability" that wouldn't otherwise be expected. I think this sets NZ apart from other climates of this type.
I can agree with the majority of that. Understanding (or trying to) the science behind a definition is the starting base for any meaningful discussion as I see it. The discussion was primarily subjective in nature though. Trying to put the winter in a practical context, whether one agreed or not, seemed to be the focus.
...and that was my point (and yours too I guess)...we can try to understand what they were thinking when they created these concepts and climate zones. Their persepctive was likley different that ours, or any number of people.
As far as palms...I know very little, only what I have read on-line, and of course seen in person. South Florida where I am often, I've see many different types, but sometimes it's a bit hard to figure out if they are truly different or I'm just looking at a seedling of the same thing (lol). Also, I think there is a class of temperate plams...and tropical class of palms, such as Royals as mentioed above. When I get time I would like to do a quick scan here in the USA to see what palms can be grown where from CA to the Southeast.
We had a great example of a continental climate here in the Susquehanna Valley. Yesterday it was 63 degrees, today it was 77 degrees, and tomorrow's gonna be 54 Good ol' Mid-Atlantic for ya.
I knew Galveston was quite mild in winter...but not that mild (lol). When you consider that the coastal plain of the Gulf of Mexico is fed by deep tropical air from the Northwest Caribbean for many months of the year, I could see Royals growing there. Your right, that is a fully tropical palm that they grow in Cuba, Miami, Kingston, the Bahamas,…etc. I think you do see royals around Melbourne and Tampa, but I’m not quite sure.
I know they need many months of 80's...how many days of the year average above 80 F in Galveston?
The northernmost Royal Palms that survived 1989 in Florida are in St. Petersburg on the Gulf side and coastal Brevard County on the east side. They are occasionally found a bit further north in Orlando and Daytona Beach, but are a bit marginal.
I don't know how many days Galveston averages above 80F, but the absolute minimums during minimums should tell you something.
Galveston 2010 absolute summer minimums
Jun: 70F
Jul: 75F
Aug: 78F
Galveston 2010 mean temperatures
Jun: 84F
Jul: 85F
Aug: 88F
If you were comparing the number of palm species being grown in California to the Southern U.S.(north of 28N), California would probably win due to all of its micro climates. However a large number of palms that will "grow" in California don't necessarily thrive. They'll just sit there for 6 months of the year and grow maybe 1 month's worth of Hawaiian time. Coastal California lacks heat while inland California gets colder and a bit too hot. That being said, oceanic, high elevation, and Mediterranean do quite well in coastal California and hardier desert type palms preform well inland. Most lowland tropical palms sulk and would grow much faster in the southern U.S. if not for winter.
I guess I rambled on again...
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Good ol' Mid-Atlantic for ya.
